Lets talk about Ich

Marie I really wish all the people in this hobby could dive and see what these fish are supposed to look like. The fish in most of our tanks are a pittyful lot compared to fish in the sea. Many people will disagree with me I am sure. I have spent many hours underwater in tropical and temperate waters for forty years and I am not diving like most people just to look at the pretty fish. You have to look very close to see not just what they are eating and where they are living but how they are reacting with the other animals present. If you read many of the posts here you will see all the people complaining about tangs and how they are ich magnets. I will agree that they are usually the first fish to exhibit symptoms but it is our fault not the fish. Tangs in a tank no matter how large are always in a state of stress, call it fear if you like. This is because tangs are never seen alone unless they are very sick. They are schooling fish and can not live without a school unless they are stressed. It is built into them and we will not change that. I have kept hippo tangs for ten years and even after all that time the fish still is in stress and it is still looking for his cousins. The other thing that causes stress that we don't usually think of is the water depth that we keep fish in. Very few adult fish live in water that is 18" deep but in a tank they are forced into it. I have seen royal grammas in 120 feet of water, they are deepwater cavefish. They know that they are in very shallow water where they should not be. Also fish want to eat all day, they would eat all night if we left the lights on but we can only feed them a couple of times a day and what we feed, no matter what is a very poor substitute for what they eat in the sea where they can pick what they want for lunch.
We feed frozen mysis, plankton, clam etc which is fine but the diet of most fish is tiny fish. The sea is full of them because fish are constantly spawning for most of their life every few weeks. Do fish in our tanks spawn every few weeks continousely? I don't think so and it is because of the stress levels I mentioned.
I know that it is not entirely our fault and we strive for the best envirnment that we can provide but we have to understand that no matter how well we aquascape, how large the tank, how good the food the fish will be stressed. And don't get me started on ASW :eek1:
Just about all fish live more than ten years, If our fish are not living at least that long we are failing. Corals live much longer.
I am finished ranting now and I am going to de-stress myself with a nice glass of Merlot :lol:

Have a great day.
Paul
 
this maybe a stupid question, but what is nsw?? and asw??
(just whern i thought i had all other abreviations down packed...here come 2 new more!!..geeeeez..lol
 
nsw is Natural seawater, the wet stuff in the ocean and asw is artificial seawater like
"Corallife" etc. that comes in a bag
 
Jumping in here. Lets say that ich is always present as discussed. So the question should be, How does it stay alive and reproduce without a host? This would contradict some accepted studies regarding the parasite. Perhaps they are still feedin on fish but are not a visible in reduced numbers in a tank with Healthy, unstressed fish. Maybe going unoticed by attaching to the gills on these heathy fish. could it be the protective mucous of the fish that wards of ich, and even minor stressors help reduce that mucous. I really wish there was some definate answers to these questions.

Heres my situation. I setup a new tank and moved everything from my old tank into it, Rock, corals, fish, etc. I noticed tangs had ich so I moved them to QT with hypo treatment. 2 other fish died before I could remove. The only fish left in the display are a handful of green chromis. I have been observing the chromis now for a month and they have shown no signs of ich. Heathy, bright, great appetites, no spots.

So do I need to treat the chromis to rid the tank of ich? Or will this make no difference as the ich find a way to survive without a host anyway?
 
I believe the ich is alive and happy in most tanks. I know it is in tanks where the person does not quarintine. The paracite can reproduce and go through it's cycle feeding on the fish but for some reason it does not go into epidemic proportions either because of the fish's immune system or some other unknown. If the fish get stressed the ich will attack immediately and for some reason be able to infect the fish enough to cause death.
I would leave your chromis tank as it is with no treatment.
Paul
PS I see you have the Sea View as your avitar. That was one of my favorite shows. What was it? "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9215105#post9215105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaView
So do I need to treat the chromis to rid the tank of ich? Or will this make no difference as the ich find a way to survive without a host anyway?
Click to expand...

Ich cannot survive without a host present for more than a few weeks, with 72 days being the longest time ever documented. The only thing that can host ich is fish. So if a tank has ich and fish are present, the ich will remain, especially if one routinely adds new fish without QT'ing. It is entirely possible to run an ich free tank, it just requires much more patience and effort than most people are willing put in. You have to decide if you want to run an ich free tank or not. IMO the time and effort required is well worthwhile. With the exception of running experiments on so called reef safe ich medications, I've not lost a fish to ich in over a decade, and haven't had an outbreak in my diplay tanks in that time either....and that includes weathering winter power outages that have caused temp drops into the high 50's :eek1:
 
Hello there Bill. Hows the East end?
Luckily I havent lost a fish to ich in about 25 years, and that is without quarantining.
I am also of the Idea that you should quarintine though. But as I always say, my tank is an experiment and I try to tell people not to do what I do. It is always better to try to run an ich free tank.
Less problems that way. I have always found ich interesting and although I am well aware of the life cycle of the paracite it baffels me as to why some tanks especially new ones are overcome with ich which is usually fatal and some tanks are just not especially affected. This is really the first time I can remember that I have even seen it in my tank in all those years except as I have stated when a fish is about to die from either old age or an accident.
I am surprised that some of my fish aquired it after a temperature drop but it just confirms my suspicions that it is always present in my tank and stress of one kind or another brings it on.
With ich present one of my fish managed to live for 18 years until I killed it in an accident, one clown lived to about 12 as did a puffer and a hippo I had lived over ten. I know that a fish should live longer than that but that was a long time ago. Now I feel confident that any fish I put into my tank (except for maybe the moorish Idol) will live out it's normal life span, whatever that is.
Of course I don't put fish in there that I know I don't have either the time or resources to properly care for.
Take care and enjoy the cold.
Paul
 
When I was getting back into the hobby 2 years ago, I bought much of my equipment used from a guy that was getting out of the hobby. When I was visiting his house, I asked him if he ever got ich. He shrugged it off fairly quickly and told me that he never did anything to treat it. He said that he would just run his UV filter 24/7 instead of with his light timer. I suppose he did this to extend the life of the UV bulb.

From about September to January, I wasn't very interested in my tank. All I did was feed and do water top offs. I didn't do a single water change during this time. Also during this time, I let my sump get low in water a few times which exposed my cheato long enough to air to turn about half of it brown and my UV bulb went out. Well about a month ago I did a good tank and sump cleaning. The next day I noticed one of my clowns was covered in ich and his tail was frayed pretty badly. There was no way I could catch and QT it without taking all my LR out. I also thought about the symbiotic and sometimes competitive relationship he has with his mate. I opted not to QT and get off my lazy butt and fix the UV Filter. I did and fed garlic soaked food that day. Within 2 days, I didn't notice any ich on the clown. The tail is still a a little frayed, but I believe he is recovering just fine. I believe QT'ing is sometimes the kiss of death if you take away the will to compete in the reef (or tank as you will). The symbiotic relationship of all inhabitants (as long as they are all getting along) I believe is important to the health of the system as a whole. I'm glad I opted not to QT and just simply try to increase the quality of the environment the best I could.
 
Don't forget in my case it was not just the temperature, the circulation was also off for maybe a day and a half. My moorish Idol is almost 7" long and much too large to be in a 100 gallon tank anyway. Even under the best circumstances a fish like that is stressed. He got ich the worst. The copperband just showed some spots on his fins and so did two of the small gobies. (One was very bad) But the 10 or 12 year old fireclown, the pair of pipefish, purple psudo, mandarin and a few others exhibited no signs of ich at all.
After a few days I do not see any ich but it still may come back. The tank went through something that upset the balance of things and it will take a while to get back to normal.
I said it is better to run an ich free tank but even better than that is to have inhabitants that are in a state of health where they do not even get ich. Most of my fish are in that state except as I said the Idol. I just can't supply enough food to him without screwing up my water. He really should be fed five times a day but with the water in the shape it is in I really don't want to do that at this time.
I really should give that fish to The New York Aquarium but not in the state of health he is presently in.
Have a great day.
Paul
 
hey guys,..yeah Bill I read the same thing. Ich cant survive without a (fish) host. However I also read that it could lay dormant on your rock, substrate and corals until a host is found and the cycle repetes it's self...is this true??
 
I can answer that. It is not true. Ich can only be dormant for a few weeks depending on the temperature.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9219652#post9219652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I said it is better to run an ich free tank but even better than that is to have inhabitants that are in a state of health where they do not even get ich.
Click to expand...

So in certain circumstances ich should be considered be an alert siren going off...that's how I have looked at it over the years. I have treated ich successfully by tending to the issue of stress in the tank. But every fish I ever tried to treat conventionally for ich died.

Paul, do you use any ASW at all ? If so what did you choose? I suspect that your issues with ASW are partly related to the fact that it is "dead". But I can't get NSW.
After E. Borneman announced his initial (& dramatic :lol: ) findings re: his salt study, I decided to switch from IO to Red Sea - had trouble finding it, so I settled for Reef Crystals. But now my LFS supplies the Red Sea... anyway, have you looked into salt mixes at all?
 
Marie, my tank is mostly ASW, It is winter here now and I don't usually collect water at this time of the year. I sometimes do and the water is better in the winter but my boat is only in the water in the summer and I am on the water every week then.
I would like to use 100% NSW but logistically it is just too labor intensive.
I don't have a problem with ASW because it is dead, I sometimes add Clorox bleach to NSW so it is also dead. The life in New York water will not live in a tropical tank anyway.
I know ASW has the same known chemicals as NSW but there are a host of other things (good and bad) in the sea like vitamins, amino acids excretions from algae etc that are not found in ASW.
Besides that, all of our animals come from NSW, none of them come from ASW. I know this will sound wierd but I am a diver, and boat Captain and I spend a lot of time on and under the water and natural sea water smells different and tastes different than ASW. I know there is no criteria for testing that and I don't advise drinking it but In 40 years of diving I have swallowed a lot of sea water.
I usually use Coralife ASW, for no particular reason except that it is on the shelf above Reef Crystals and I see it first. I doubt there is much difference and even if there is it would be so slight that only a chemist may notice.
As for treating Ich, it is the easiest disease to treat as long as you can catch the fish. Copper will cure it guaranteed in a few days and if you add quinicrine hydrocloride to the copper you can cure the fish in a day. Of course you would still have to keep the fish in the medication for 10 days anyway to be sure to kill all the paracites.
Take care.
Paul
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9044390#post9044390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
If you treat with copper, the treatment only needs to run 4 weeks. However, the reef tank would need to remain fishless for 6 weeks in order to starve out the ich.

zoanthid2009,

Copper will not destroy the guts of any fish. Yes it can be a bit harsh on the fish as opposed to hyposalinity (my preferred treatment) but it doesn't stop anyone from eating ;)
Click to expand...

Just need a reference for the above statement if you have it. I am doing lots of research right now on ich and I've read lots of opposite info, including this from Bob Fenner:
"Long-term exposure to copper can be harmful to fishes. Tangs, in particular, can suffer if they linger too long in copper-treated water. They harbor beneficial digestive bacteria, which enable them to process their food. These bacteria may be adversely affected by long-term copper exposure. The idea here is to employ a one-to-two-week exposure to the copper medication, and then reduce the copper level through water changes (without replenishing the copper, of course) and absorptive filter media, such as Poly Filter. If you are treating fishes such as Centropyge angelfishes, which have a reputation for copper sensitivity, you may want to utilize an aquarium medication containing Formalin, instead of copper. The remainder of your fishes stay in the treatment aquarium will be dedicated to providing them with high-quality foods, good water quality, and careful observation. Use this period of time to ascertain that your fishes are once again healthy, and that no secondary infections have had the opportunity to manifest themselves."

I use the Formalin and methyl blue dip Fenner recommends and treat with copper for 3-4 days in a quarantine area, then move the fish to a natural display (refugium, UV sterilizer, ozone). This has worked very well for me. If I see even a tiny spot, I dose the system with Formalin and it's gone. I am working towards all natural display systems and it's been going well. Just want all the info I can get. Thanks!!!!
 
I don't know what Bob is refering to when he says "long exposure" Is that a week or a month? I have kept fish in copper much longer than that and of course I can't be certain if it affects their beneficial bacteria. I do know that in New York at least fish are kept in copper at the wholesalers until they are in a dealer's tank and in the dealers tank there is usually copper. As I said, if there was no copper, there would be no salt water fish hobby.
I don't care what the LFS tells you we need copper in this hobby.
Whenever you confine fish and paracites in a tank you are heading for disaster. If you lock a bunch of people with typhoid in a small room with healthy people they will all come down with it and die. You can treat the people with the proper medications which will probably be poison if overdosed and cure them all. If you keep giving the people the medication long after they are cured, you will probably also kill them. Thats why there are recomended dosages. Even aspirin is a poison and will kill you but I take an aspirin every day just for the hell of it. And I am older than most here. :lol:
Formalin is another good remedy, I dipped my moorish Idol in it last week. It is another poison. As a matter of fact I use copper mixed with formalin in conjunction with quinicrine hydrocloride. Three poisons together and I haven't lost a fish to ich in almost three decades. Copper is the medication of choice. It is the fastest and as far as I can tell, does not adversely damage the fish. I am not saying that the fish does not feel discomfort in copper but if you were covered in paracites especially in your eyes and nose where they are restricting your breathing and I could offer you a cure in about 48 hours but I said it may temporarily destroy your stomach bacteria, what would you say? Did you ever take antibiotics for a week. How did your stomach feel? Were you cured after the treatment? Did the stomach bacteria return?
Have a great day.
Paul :dance:
 
I agree a lot with rsteagall.

I probably shouldn't have a saltwater tank, I am very lazy & seldom do water changes. I once probably went 8 months without a water change. Before buying my tank a did a ton of research, reading books & reading forums online.

I have a 125 gallon reef tank
I have an Euro Reef skimmer rated for 200gallon or 250 gallon? I did this because I figure the bigger the skimmer the less water changes I would have to do.
Deep sand bed. 5"+? Again, deep bed I hoped I wouldn't have to do water changes.
Maybe 200-250 lbs of live rock. I seeded the tank with about 150lbs+ of live rock & cured rock. I figure with that much live rock I wouldn't have to do as many water changes.

When I first had my tank a fish would get ich, I would try & catch him to QT it / them & apply medications. I also did the "fresh water dip." None of these methods worked. My fish almost always died. I got tired of tearing down my tank every time to try & catch a fish. It did more harm than good. Chasing an already sick fish all over the tank was not good. I would have two big tubs (like party tubs) filled with my live rock. It is almost impossible to catch a fish in my tank without taking out the rock.

Having so much rock, it would take me 4-5 hrs to put it all back. It was / is like a jigsaw puzzle, it would never look right & I always seemed to have left over rock.

This went on for maybe 3 months. I finally said NO MORE!

Like I said, I am very lazy. So I read up on Ich. There is a ton of conflicting information out there. I know how the life cycle works.

So what I did was buy 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 cleaner wrasse, & 2 gobies.

It was cool to see them pick at the fish. I would still get ich from time to time. I do think it helped though.

Now with about 5 years of experience, I now believe that the ich is always in the tank. I no longer have the ich cleaning crew. A power outage wiped out about 90% of my tank about 8 months ago.

No here is the ich part.

I have a blue powder tang that from time to time will get ich. I have now learned this. Whenever the fish is stressed out, it gets ich. Now I use my BPT as an indicator for everything in my tank.

If my BPT gets ich, I check the salinity. I check nitrates, phosphates, everything. I have had salinity so high that corals have died off. I have had it very low where i am surprised it didn't wipe out my whole tank. I have also had my heater(s) break down where they were not even working. Weeks? Months, who knows for how long. Since I don't do water changes, I had no clue the water was so cold.

I have had just about everything that can go wrong in a tank, go wrong. Everytime something went wrong, my BPT would get ich.

So now, whenver my BPT gets ich, I check to see why he got it. I then make the adjustments. Sometimes it is a 30% water change. Sometimes my nitrates are so high I have to buy the phosphate filter media to remove it.
I have since added a Phosphate Reactor. Problem is, I am lazy & don't change the media as indicated. When I get the red bloom, I get the phosphate filter media to remove it & then I change the media in the Reactor.
I now have added a fuge. (about 4 months)

The short of it is this:
When you buy a new fish from the fish store & add it to the tank, it is stressed already. Adding it to your tank may cause it to develop ich. It can spread to other fish, but this seldom happens. In my experience, only stressed fish will get ich.

Meaning, be smart about it. I had a Blue Powder Tang. I bought a very healthy Naso tang. (had my eye on him for 3 weeks at LFS)
I added the Naso to the tank. Overnight my BPT got ICH. The two of them would fight like crazy. Gee, wonder why? duh. How come my BPT get ICH & not the Naso? You would think the Naso would get it.

Solution? I re-arranged the aquascape. So it was all new territory. They never fought after that, & my Blue Powder Tang didn't die. It was COVERED, looked real bad. Didn't die.

Now when I add a new fish or rock or coral, I do a small rock scape. I float the bags, slowly add my tank water to the bag & toss most of the water out & then add the fish. The process takes about 2 hrs.

Ich is in the tank, you can't get rid of it. I even think the BPT may be a carrier. Kind of like herpes. People have it, show no signs of it. And it usually only comes out when you are stressed....your immune system goes down & guess what? People get the cold sores.

I think ICH is like herpes. Some fish have it, some don't.

I haven't lost a fish to ICH or anything in maybe 3-4 years. (except power outage) The only loss I have had since was 2 Chromis fish? I was too lazy to float the bags, I just dropped them in the tank. They died a couple of weeks later. Not sure why.

For those of you that QT your fish. And claim to not have any ich. Do this, take out all the rock from your tank. Chase the fish with a net for 20 minutes. Then, put the rock back.

I am 100% positive at least one of your fish will get ich.

I would bet $$ on it.

If your fish get ich, something is wrong. Find out why the fish is stressed. If you add a new fish & another fish gets ich. It is probably because it is the same species or it is invading it's territory.

That's my very long 8 cents.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9436044#post9436044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by enchie

For those of you that QT your fish. And claim to not have any ich. Do this, take out all the rock from your tank. Chase the fish with a net for 20 minutes. Then, put the rock back.

I am 100% positive at least one of your fish will get ich.

I would bet $$ on it.
Click to expand...

You'd loose that bet ;)

It is indeed possible to run a tank without ich present. Of course you can choose to run a tank in a manner for which ich will always be present, but it truly doesn't have to be that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Paul B
How Fish are Different from most of us
Replies
1
Views
97
Paul B
Paul B
xLennie
Fish Pathogens and keeping Tankbred & WC Fish together
Replies
1
Views
314
griss
griss
S
Fish slime: An answer to antibiotic resistance?
Replies
6
Views
241
Subsea
S
DjPhato
Just FYI…even aquariums can be deadly 😩
Replies
3
Views
148
wvned
wvned
T
Help copper!
Replies
9
Views
313
tmccaffery
T
Back
Top