Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12377922#post12377922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Why dose Vodka at all?

Why use additives to our tank in general? Usually, there is no need to do such but for some reason people feel compelled that an additive will make their tank better. I usually take a minimalistic approach to reefing and rarely try to feed into hype by having super rare limited edition corals or the newest design in skimmer. I wanted to drop my nitrates and phosphates b/c I felt they were still at a problematic level hindering growth and calcification of sps. About four weeks into dosing colors became more brilliant as a side-effect that was not only noticeable to me but to others that had stopped by both before and after.

 

[melev]

Thanks. So I had it backwards, it is primarily to reduce PO4 and NO3.

 

[Harley-J]

Genetics, Thank you..sounds like a sound suggestion..I think I will bring dosing down a bit and see if the Zoas respond..I was thinking a bit last night..As I have heard suggested before..It is starting to make sense since Dosing fuels what is currently in your tank now..introducing Positive strains, such as Prodibio and Zeo bacs to refresh your system seems to be a great idea..

 

[Harley-J]

Genetics, You may have already posted your dosing ratio and schedule..Is it possible to get that again? or if you know what page its on..
Thanks

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12378349#post12378349 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Why use additives to our tank in general? Usually, there is no need to do such but for some reason people feel compelled that an additive will make their tank better. I usually take a minimalistic approach to reefing and rarely try to feed into hype by having super rare limited edition corals or the newest design in skimmer. I wanted to drop my nitrates and phosphates b/c I felt they were still at a problematic level hindering growth and calcification of sps. About four weeks into dosing colors became more brilliant as a side-effect that was not only noticeable to me but to others that had stopped by both before and after.

I think you may find over time some elements like potassium, iodide and iron start to drop below NSW levels. This is due to the increased bacteria. They consume this along with P04, No3 and carbon.
Thus the options are, larger water changes and/or supplements. Or some feel that feeding the fish more release enough of these nutrient.

 

[stony_corals]

Melev, yes, the primary purpose is to reduce nutrients ( N and P). As a result, the corals pigments may become moe apparent and the coral appears more colorful.

Zedar, do you have any basis in fact that bacteria consume potassium iodide and iron?!? Potassium is an element needed for cellular function, but there isn't much potassium provided by potassium iodide, ie you can not raise potassium peels via addition potassium iodide.... As for iron, havent heard that... Algae sure... Got any data here?

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Well I'm about to start my VSV dosing ala glassbox design mixture.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12378845#post12378845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
... do you have any basis in fact that bacteria consume potassium ...

Potassium Transport and the Relationship Between Intracellular Potassium Concentration and Amino Acid Uptake by Cells of a Marine Pseudomonad
John Thompson and Robert A. MacLeod
Journal of Bacteriology, Nov. 1974, p. 598-603

A few extracts ...

Although differing from most terrestrial bacteria in having a strict dependence upon Na+ for growth (13), the marine pseudomonad has, like all other bacteria examined, the capacity to accumulate K+ within itself to concentrations far in excess of the concentration in the growth medium (19, 21, 22).

And ...

The requirement for K+ for active transport of substrates is far from unique for the marine pseudomonad and E. coli. Eagon and Wilkerson (9) showed that K+-depleted cells of Aerobacter aerogenes lost the capacity to actively transport citrate, but that this activity could be restored by the addition of K+ to the uptake medium. Furthermore, uptake of glutamate, alanine, and aspartate by Staphylococcus aureus (6), f,-galactoside transport by E. coli (15), and amino acid (14) and sugar (1) uptake by Streptococcus faecalis have all been shown to be K+-dependent processes.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12378845#post12378845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
... do you have any basis in fact that bacteria consume ... iron?!? ...

I'm not sure "consume" would be the verb that I'd choose, but try this one ...

Limitation of Bacterial Growth by Dissolved Organic Matter and Iron in the Southern Ocean
Matthew J. Church, David A. Hutchins, and Hugh W. Ducklow
Applied and Environmental Microbiology, February 2000, p. 455-466, Vol. 66, No. 2
(full article) http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/66/2/455

From the article ...

Bacterial growth was relatively unchanged by additions of iron alone; however, additions of glucose plus iron resulted in substantial increases in rates of bacterial growth and biomass accumulation. These results imply that bacterial growth efficiency and nitrogen utilization may be partly constrained by iron availability ... .

Mind .... different regions yield different data.






For anyone who is interested in more reading on the K+ thingy ...

why is K+ a neglected element on every discussion outside of zeo?
(ZEO, Bergzy, 12.28.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8610



Also, if you use these keywords, marine + bacteria + iron + "microbial loop", Google will give you this:

(Search Result)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images



HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[melev]

I really need to order a Potassium test kit tonight.

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12382260#post12382260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I really need to order a Potassium test kit tonight.

Ordered from AquariumSpecialty.com.

 

[Zedar]

LMAO

Stony,

I was going to say "no I dont have any hard data", but ask meso

I can share my own experience.
After dosing carbon for a few months my tank had not a trace of algae. But my corals were faded, especially a pink monti. It had tissue so it wasn't STN or RTN. But it was pale.
I read about potassium on the zeo site and started dosing KCL.
In one week the coral has shown major improvement. I can see PE like I never thought possible from monti's.
Other corals in the tank are also showing improved coloration and health.
I had a drab 2" frag that was a pale purple. Its now a bright green and intense purple and one of the nicest corals ive ever seen. A real diamond in the rough.
I dose small amounts of iron, iodide and AA's. The transformation in just a few weeks in incredible.

 

[hollback]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12378485#post12378485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Harley-J
Genetics, You may have already posted your dosing ratio and schedule..Is it possible to get that again? or if you know what page its on..
Thanks

ditto.

 

[Genetics]

This is for simplification:
For my mix make-up I'm using 1tablespoon sugar and 10mL vinegar per 500mL 20% vodka. For actual tank dosing I started at 0.25mL and moved up to 4mL over the course of several weeks. Since then I have started varying my dose from 1-4mL depending on the amount of food I'm putting in the tank (more food higher dose). I usually dose around 2mL daily at this point.

In actuality:
I use 16mL vodka for each 10 gallons RO water that runs through my kalk reactor. There is about 2.5GPD evaporate that is replenished (4mL 20% EtOH/day). For the other additives; 2 tablespoons sugar and 20mL acetic acid in 1 liter of RO water. I add 4mL of this daily. Works out to be 60mg of sugar/day with 80uL of acetic acid/day. I add this when feeding and may just go with adding the sugar to my food mix in the future and cut out the acetic acid altogether.

 

[Zedar]

This is only me thinking out loud. So feel free to shoot holes in it.

In the past some incredible tanks have been produced from people like JB NY .. Steve Weast the list goes on.

These very successful aquarists have never reported a need to correct their deficient K+ levels.
Dare i say they had deficient K+ level?
I'm saying they had deficient K+ levels because I dont believe, in the past, any salt mixes were being produced that had NSW levels of K+. So how or where would it come from?

K+ is the 6th most abundant element in saltwater after calcium. Another element that wasn't considered important till the recent past.
I recall a manufacturer of salt mixes stating that the reason most salt mixes are low in Mg and K+ was due to the difficulty in getting the mix to dissolve. People are looking for a mix that dissolves fully, and they are, after all, out to make a profit, so they give the customer what they want.

So in the past there was no need to correct this deficiency. And no one seemed to care.

Now, no sane person could look at pictures of these TOTM tanks and conclude that these corals looked unhealthy and that something was wrong with their water parameters. But along comes carbon dosing systems and suddenly the need to correct this deficient K+ level.

Two possible reasons (maybe more but I cant think of one. help me out here if you can)

1. The bacteria are consuming K+ driving it down to a level below acceptable levels by the corals. In other words, non carbon based tanks are low in K+ (lower the NSW) but now so low that the corals are affected.

or

2. Carbon based systems have lower P04 and N03 levels.
In more traditional systems, slightly higher p04 and N03 levels counter the need for K+ levels to be at NSW.
In other words, the corals adapt in traditional systems by utilizing the available nutrients. In this case, P04 and N03. But once these levels become lowered, then the need for K+, Iron, Iodide and maybe others, increases?

Let the beatings commence :rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12383970#post12383970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
LMAO

Stony,

I was going to say "no I dont have any hard data", but ask meso

I can share my own experience.
After dosing carbon for a few months my tank had not a trace of algae. But my corals were faded, especially a pink monti. It had tissue so it wasn't STN or RTN. But it was pale.
I read about potassium on the zeo site and started dosing KCL.
In one week the coral has shown major improvement. I can see PE like I never thought possible from monti's.
Other corals in the tank are also showing improved coloration and health.
I had a drab 2" frag that was a pale purple. Its now a bright green and intense purple and one of the nicest corals ive ever seen. A real diamond in the rough.
I dose small amounts of iron, iodide and AA's. The transformation in just a few weeks in incredible.

You know I had to play devil's advocate... I do dose K... but I do not think you'll be experiencing anything related to K deficiencies until your nutrients are low... I agree that elements are more important than is commonly thought in aquaria, at least sps dominated aquaria and/or truly low nutrient systems.

I have been dosing K, Potassium Iodide and Iron... just trying to bring more info out. Please do not interpret PE to mean anything... there are so many reasons why they exhibit PE, unless your feeding at the time, or dosing aminos, you won't know why.

Iron is very important.... The Redfield Ratio again 106:16:1 (C:N) and if we add iron to this... its 106:16:1:.001, so there is a limitation related to Fe... So if Iron is limited (and I would argue that if you are not dosing, you have a refugia) and you can not seem to lower nutrients any more, this may be the limitation...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Thanks as always Meso for the comments... Wish they had a little devil smilies?!?!

 

[miwoodar]

For anyone who is interested in more reading on the K+ thingy ...

why is K+ a neglected element on every discussion outside of zeo?
(ZEO, Bergzy, 12.28.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8610

Another half dozen articles in the queue. Uhm - my brain is already fairly full. I don't know if I have room to fit this much information. :lol:

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12385289#post12385289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
This is only me thinking out loud. So feel free to shoot holes in it.

In the past some incredible tanks have been produced from people like JB NY .. Steve Weast the list goes on.

These very successful aquarists have never reported a need to correct their deficient K+ levels.
Dare i say they had deficient K+ level?
I'm saying they had deficient K+ levels because I dont believe, in the past, any salt mixes were being produced that had NSW levels of K+. So how or where would it come from?

K+ is the 6th most abundant element in saltwater after calcium. Another element that wasn't considered important till the recent past.
I recall a manufacturer of salt mixes stating that the reason most salt mixes are low in Mg and K+ was due to the difficulty in getting the mix to dissolve. People are looking for a mix that dissolves fully, and they are, after all, out to make a profit, so they give the customer what they want.

So in the past there was no need to correct this deficiency. And no one seemed to care.

Now, no sane person could look at pictures of these TOTM tanks and conclude that these corals looked unhealthy and that something was wrong with their water parameters. But along comes carbon dosing systems and suddenly the need to correct this deficient K+ level.

Two possible reasons (maybe more but I cant think of one. help me out here if you can)

1. The bacteria are consuming K+ driving it down to a level below acceptable levels by the corals. In other words, non carbon based tanks are low in K+ (lower the NSW) but now so low that the corals are affected.

or

2. Carbon based systems have lower P04 and N03 levels.
In more traditional systems, slightly higher p04 and N03 levels counter the need for K+ levels to be at NSW.
In other words, the corals adapt in traditional systems by utilizing the available nutrients. In this case, P04 and N03. But once these levels become lowered, then the need for K+, Iron, Iodide and maybe others, increases?

Let the beatings commence :rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

I'd like to add a third to this discussion.... zeolites are ion-exchanging media, could not some potassium be adsorbed, in exchange for something else (Na for example)..... I'm gonna get flamed for this....

 

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12385289#post12385289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
This is only me thinking out loud. So feel free to shoot holes in it.

In the past some incredible tanks have been produced from people like JB NY .. Steve Weast the list goes on.

These very successful aquarists have never reported a need to correct their deficient K+ levels.
Dare i say they had deficient K+ level?
I'm saying they had deficient K+ levels because I dont believe, in the past, any salt mixes were being produced that had NSW levels of K+. So how or where would it come from?

K+ is the 6th most abundant element in saltwater after calcium. Another element that wasn't considered important till the recent past.
I recall a manufacturer of salt mixes stating that the reason most salt mixes are low in Mg and K+ was due to the difficulty in getting the mix to dissolve. People are looking for a mix that dissolves fully, and they are, after all, out to make a profit, so they give the customer what they want.

So in the past there was no need to correct this deficiency. And no one seemed to care.

Now, no sane person could look at pictures of these TOTM tanks and conclude that these corals looked unhealthy and that something was wrong with their water parameters. But along comes carbon dosing systems and suddenly the need to correct this deficient K+ level.

Two possible reasons (maybe more but I cant think of one. help me out here if you can)

1. The bacteria are consuming K+ driving it down to a level below acceptable levels by the corals. In other words, non carbon based tanks are low in K+ (lower the NSW) but now so low that the corals are affected.

or

2. Carbon based systems have lower P04 and N03 levels.
In more traditional systems, slightly higher p04 and N03 levels counter the need for K+ levels to be at NSW.
In other words, the corals adapt in traditional systems by utilizing the available nutrients. In this case, P04 and N03. But once these levels become lowered, then the need for K+, Iron, Iodide and maybe others, increases?

Let the beatings commence :rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

All I know is for years I could grow montipora without issue, and for the past 1.5 years (or longer) I can't keep M. digitata whatsoever, and M. capricornis & M. foliosa are miserable. I did notice a direct correlation to improvement when I kept Magnesium up above 1400, but still the corals are not growing properly nor are they looking right.

Since my water parameters seem to be pretty good, I'm wondering if I'm missing a particular element such as Potassium. I'll know soon enough.

 

[Zedar]

Lets me add melev to that list of incredible tanks

Well lets think out loud again. What might have happened recently with respect to your tank? A larger more efficient skimmer perhaps? GFO use where there was none in the past?

 

[melev]

My tank isn't all that great, and I see the flaws daily. I'm always trying to determine what causes issues, and frankly it seems like a lot of guessing. Here are a few:

* leaking voltage in water
* nitrate
* phosphate
* alleopathy (leathers & anemones)
* sandbed

All of those or any of them could be contributing to the situation, and I try to isolate and resolve each one as they appear. What is odd is some corals love my tank and others don't. Montipora should be a no-brainer.

I did find leaking voltage in the tank last week and I'm now in the process of changing things to eliminate that. One external pump with a manifold is going to replace about 6 pumps in the sump.

Anyway, my reef is always a work in progress.

Here's a happy coral to cheer me up: