Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12545113#post12545113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
I was just reading through a study suggesting that sequential changes in carbon sources didn't have much of an effect on bacterial communities. Would it be possible to have "stubborn bacteria", when switching carbon sources the bac's will not utilize the new source the same or as well as the original?

Bacteria that do not utilize the new source would eventually die. If they don't use it as well then a competing bacter could become dominant. Sugar is a useful substance to many organisms and I don't see why algaes couldn't use this as well. Wouldn't sugar addition increase algae growth as well as nitrate and phosphate depletion? Could explain why chaeto grows better in v/s/v and not so much in vodka.

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12542663#post12542663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
Question for all of you!

My skimmer seems to have slowed production inthe last few days. My initial carbon source was sugar for many months, and the skimmer cup had to be emptied twice a day...10 days agop I started using a v/s/v mixture (375ml vodka, 3tbs sugar, 10ml vinegar). THe water was MUCH clearer by day 3 of v/s/v dosing, but the skimmer output has been steadily decreasing. I've also noticed that my cheato is actually growing again. So have I reached an ULNS? does the ethanol as a carbon source create bacteria that are not as easily removed by skimming as the sugar fed bacteria? any thoughts?????

Bacteria need a carbon source but also need phosphate and nitrogen. If one of the other two are in short supply you can add as much carbon as you want and bacteria population will not grow. You may be at the point now where your system has become nutrient poor. The cheato thing throws me off though...

Another thing is you may have a dominate strain of bacteria. One strain may out compete another strain to almost extinction. Some are more in the water column and some on the rocks or glass etc. This is the reason some of the other systems like Zeovit add other bacteria strains. Also the reason they have the material in the reactor that needs to shake loose some of the bacteria once in a while to get it into the water column as either food for the inhabitants or be removed by the skimmer. By doing this also gives more space for more bacteria to grow.. So it is very possible changing formula may have gave another bacteria the upper hand to comptete for the carbon source limmiting the growth of another bacteria that forms more in the water column.


Dave

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12545234#post12545234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
JC,

Do you add any bacteria?

Yes, I dose ZEObac at the rate of 1 drop per day in my 45-50g system. I also feed very heavily, dose AA's (kent Coral Accell), and dose kent essential elements for a vit/min supp. Also, ZEOspur2 dosed at the recommended rate.

I was geting really dark skimate and having to empty the cup twice a day when dosing just sugar. I was hesitant in dosing vodka as I;m a recovering alcoholic, but finally justified it by mixing it with sugar and vinegar as soon as I got it home. I'll admit, the tank seems to much cleare using the v/s/v mix as opposed to just dosing sugar. I could very easily get an OD dosing sugar, where I am dosing 3ml/day of v/s/v mix ion a 45g system.

Any thoughts about upping the amount of sugar and vinegar in the mix? My current mix is 375ml vodka/ 3tbsp sugar/ 10ml vinegar.

shred5Bacteria need a carbon source but also need phosphate and nitrogen. If one of the other two are in short supply you can add as much carbon as you want and bacteria population will not grow. You may be at the point now where your system has become nutrient poor. The cheato thing throws me off though...

The cheato has me confused as well...I thought I might have reached ULN and the skimmer didn't have as much left to remove...but i feed as much a day as a normal person with a 120g system, so I know there is something there to skim...and the cheato, which was turning white, is now green and growing again

 

[OnlyCrimson]

You can probably up everything else if you want. Has anyone actually noticed a difference when using straight vodka, straight sugar, or straight vinegar? Has anyone done this? I use a vsv mixture much like glass box's, but with less sugar. I always get nice dark skimmate and very stable foam heads on the skimmer. This was not present prior to dosing.

 

[stony_corals]

Well, not all organisms will utilize C (or any other nutrient) equally. For example, micro algae are able to very effectively extract nutrients from tanks that are ULN. Micro algae can do this better than macro algae, and macro can do it better than 'higher' organisms. My guess is that bacteria are on par with micro algae... On the other hand macro and micro algaes do grow on the reefs, which are pretty damn ULN. It's the herbavores that keep it in check. Not a lack of nutrients. Though my guess is that the prospect for nutrient limitation, in algae, are going to be N and Fe. While P is really low, it doesn't leave the system like N does, and with Fe, well, I don't know the Fe cycle

On a zeo system that I have a refugium with chaeto and two sp. of calerpa, the growth has stalled, even with daily dosing of aminos. I'm getting pretty close to ULN looking at the corals and with good test kits....

I don't have a vodka system with a refugium so I can't answer this one, though the zeo experience may be helpful (or not).

You'd think there'd be some preference for 'C' in various forms based upon sp. of bacteria, but does this matter? I don't think anyone (well, I'm sure some will) can really say that C dosing won't lower nutrients..... I think Genetics is on to something though... C as a fuel for some algae, and/or algae like bacteria (cyano). I've seen this when dosing vodka (usually, after dosing myself with too much vodka). Some forms of cyano can grow with ULN systems that dose C. I've seen this when od'ing start2 ( a carbon source).... would this then indicate a C limitation?!?

 

[OnlyCrimson]

I certainly think that's a possibility. I have noticed a very strange bacteria like growth that is generally a very light brown and coats only certain areas of rock. It does not easily break apart like cyano, infact it is quite hard to get off.

I'm trying to think this out. When dose it seems like it is possible to overdose. Meaning that we have dosed more than is needed to keep the bacteria going and this overdose is utilized by other organisms. Like the bacteria and other micro algae growth. Perhaps these organisms are not as efficient as the bacteria that lower N and P in using C? Or they require higher levels of it in order to use it? I would think since there is no way to have only certain life forms use C there is no way to stop this? Has anybody dosing not had bacteria growths?

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12548580#post12548580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OnlyCrimson
I have noticed a very strange bacteria like growth that is generally a very light brown and coats only certain areas of rock.

I'm trying to think this out. When dose it seems like it is possible to overdose. Meaning that we have dosed more than is needed to keep the bacteria going and this overdose is utilized by other organisms. Like the bacteria and other micro algae growth. Perhaps these organisms are not as efficient as the bacteria that lower N and P in using C? Or they require higher levels of it in order to use it?

Interesting concept. However, bacteria that are more inefficient compared to others in resource utilization should not appear when the resources become depleted. It would be stronger to suggest that bacteria become limited as resources deplete and those that still can utilize the relatively low levels become dominant in the sense that they are now visable on rocks. Still a stretch...

 

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12547986#post12547986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OnlyCrimson
You can probably up everything else if you want. Has anyone actually noticed a difference when using straight vodka, straight sugar, or straight vinegar? Has anyone done this? I use a vsv mixture much like glass box's, but with less sugar. I always get nice dark skimmate and very stable foam heads on the skimmer. This was not present prior to dosing.

What are you meaning when you say "You can probably up everything else if you want."?

FWIW, my foam head is still very stable, and the skimate is good and dark...it's just that production has dropped from 2 cups a day down to 1/2 cup a day

And I guess I may be the only one who has noticed differences from dosing a straight v/s/ or v versus the combo...but the only downside I have seen is skimate! Everthing else seems to be the same or better (water clarity has improved greatly)


On a side note (yet related): I brought home 5 frags from marine solutions today (green stylo, green/yellow birdsnest, blue w/purple polyps monti (cap?), deep purple (almost black) acro, and a 3 head frogspawn). They all came out of a GH prop system and have that typical sungrown coral look...they are obviously not running ULN as well. I'm interested in observing how they transition over to both artificial light and ULNS at the same time.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Tewks, I meant you can experiment and increase the amount of either in the mixture. I'm also interested in what happens to those frags you just bought.

Genetics, I think it is safe to assume that C is used more readily by the bacteria that lower N and P, then by the other visible bacteria and algae growth. Is visible bacteria and micro algae growth only related to overdose, or is C used by other organisms that are not over run by dominant bacteria?

I'm curious as to how diverse the bacteria is in carbon dosed tanks. Is it safe to assume we all have relativly the same bacterias or are our different experiences maybe casued by different bacteria.

 

[JCTewks]

Well, I'll be snapping some pics tomorrow when the lights come on for a photo comparison to be done later. At this point, I've just raised the level in the skimmer to increase output some. My air meter is out on loan...so maybe the air has dropped some which could explain the lower skimate ouput...I don't really have any good hypotheses on that.

I would think that all of our systems STARTED with relatively the same bacteria. All/most of the live rock we are using in our tanks comes from a relatively small area of the south pacific...so i would assume that the bac strains are the same throughout that region. But, then comes the different bac sources that different people are using...some use ZEO, ultralith, prodibio, and, zedar uses seachem. So the bac strains are prob different among the different brands. I would also think that over time prior to C dosing, that some strains would gain a stronger foothold in our systems than others....maybe introducing some fresh liverock would rediversify our systems with "new" bacteria.
All just thoughts...no science to back it up...I'll let the really smart people handle the science...I'll stick to the observation :lol:

 

[Reefflections]

And update
I was dosing the 3 part additives for a few weeks.And kept adding more and more and more.Thought this wasn't a good thing,being so much was being added.I looked at possible really being rock issues.I did pull a rock out,and it had a slight slime on it.So I looled further into the condition of the rock.Under a magnifying glass,every little pore in the rock itself had algae growing.This does makes sense after all these years, rock in a system over 10 years now.I know by pulling the rock out,there wasn't going to be any type of bio filteration taken place.I cut the dosage in half during this period.Corals never gotten light at all matter of fact colors are outstanding,and ALL fish are fine.They have held their color,and no STN or RTN has taken place here.I didn't want to totally stop dosing the 3 parts being it's been in the system.I'm just trying to hold on another 2 weeks,because I have some other cooked rock is ready.I'm just trying to get rid most of the algae that's left in the system,before cooked rock goes in.I know this might seem strange,with no Bio filteration taken place.I'm about 4 weeks into doing this,and no ill effects at all.Just trying to clean the rest of the system.I surely don't want to up any dosing at this time.I will just hold this coarse,for when rock goes in.I thought maybe somebody might have done this.I do know folks do cooked live rock with Vodka to speed process up,with a high end skimmers.

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12549447#post12549447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
What are you meaning when you say "You can probably up everything else if you want."?

FWIW, my foam head is still very stable, and the skimate is good and dark...it's just that production has dropped from 2 cups a day down to 1/2 cup a day

And I guess I may be the only one who has noticed differences from dosing a straight v/s/ or v versus the combo...but the only downside I have seen is skimate! Everthing else seems to be the same or better (water clarity has improved greatly)


On a side note (yet related): I brought home 5 frags from marine solutions today (green stylo, green/yellow birdsnest, blue w/purple polyps monti (cap?), deep purple (almost black) acro, and a 3 head frogspawn). They all came out of a GH prop system and have that typical sungrown coral look...they are obviously not running ULN as well. I'm interested in observing how they transition over to both artificial light and ULNS at the same time.

Ill be cleaning the skimmer this weekend. its been a few months since its been cleaned. I'll let you know if that makes a difference.
But it is possible that theres just nothing to skim?

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12550487#post12550487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefflections
And update
I was dosing the 3 part additives for a few weeks.And kept adding more and more and more.Thought this wasn't a good thing,being so much was being added.I looked at possible really being rock issues.I did pull a rock out,and it had a slight slime on it.So I looled further into the condition of the rock.Under a magnifying glass,every little pore in the rock itself had algae growing.This does makes sense after all these years, rock in a system over 10 years now.I know by pulling the rock out,there wasn't going to be any type of bio filteration taken place.I cut the dosage in half during this period.Corals never gotten light at all matter of fact colors are outstanding,and ALL fish are fine.They have held their color,and no STN or RTN has taken place here.I didn't want to totally stop dosing the 3 parts being it's been in the system.I'm just trying to hold on another 2 weeks,because I have some other cooked rock is ready.I'm just trying to get rid most of the algae that's left in the system,before cooked rock goes in.I know this might seem strange,with no Bio filteration taken place.I'm about 4 weeks into doing this,and no ill effects at all.Just trying to clean the rest of the system.I surely don't want to up any dosing at this time.I will just hold this coarse,for when rock goes in.I thought maybe somebody might have done this.I do know folks do cooked live rock with Vodka to speed process up,with a high end skimmers.

Yeah i was going to suggest that. When cooking live rock adding large amounts of carbon would speed the process up, with little damage to anything.

 

[Reefflections]

Zedar
Not to get this thread side tracked here cooking of rock.You really need a skimmer to do this,for removal of the nasties.I don't have and extra skimmer for removal.So do you know if Vodka can be added,before a new water change is due?Adding Vodka 24, 48 hours before a change out?Enough to serve the purpose without a a skimmer.It's a Brut trash can full to the brim with rock,about 20 gallons of water.But how much Vonda is really added,when you mentioned large dosages?
Sorry guys.....Well let's get back on track with this post.But this also might helps others,that use Vodka for the purpose of cooking rock also.

 

[Zedar]

20ml should do the trick. Thats 20ml per day.

Without a skimmer you'll have to do frequent water changes.

 

[Reefflections]

Thanks for the heads up

 

[stony_corals]

Not having a skimmer is self defeating in dosing C... You dose vodka, they reduce NO3 to N2, and reduce PO4, but the P stays in the system, now part of the biomass of the bacteria or may be reacting with carbonates to precipitate out... The bacteria die and the bacteria 'decompose' producing nutrients and further taxing the system's O2 levels.... It's a requirement to have a skimmer when dosing C, IMHO

 

[Malifluous]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12545113#post12545113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
FWIW since going with VSV over just Vodka, we experienced an increase in skimmate production.

I was just reading through a study suggesting that sequential changes in carbon sources didn't have much of an effect on bacterial communities. Would it be possible to have "stubborn bacteria", when switching carbon sources the bac's will not utilize the new source the same or as well as the original?

This is a valid point. "Stubborn bacteria" does exist. There will sometimes be a delay in utilizing new C source since the bacteria must create new expression of the New C source-degrading genes "digestive enzymes" to utilize the new carbon source. Microalgae will also behave the same after introducing a new nitrogen source.

 

[Genetics]

Sugar uptake by Algae in Saltwater

Potential reason why macroalgae still grows with v/s/v addition. Sugar it seems can be uptaken by algae and utilized for growth.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Good article genetics. That leads to other questions. So many unknowns.