Let's talk copper

[kenith]

I'm setting up a qt tank (this will run indefinitely) and am considering the following on a 75 gallon bow front with sump/skimmer/ect.

-cupramine for copper
-biopellets from my display a sit already has a healthy bacteria population rather than restarting the tank again
-prazipro for internal parasites.



Does anyone have an issue or suggestions with the above?

 

[kenith]

Also is cupramine from seachem a good choice?

 

[ThRoewer]

Does anyone have an issue or suggestions with the above?

Yes:

A QT shouldn't run indefinitely but rather be cleaned, sterilized and recycled for a new batch of fish or otherwise you risk creating a cesspool of diseases.

Copper is not the cure all (it won't kill brook) and not even the most effective treatment for ich or velvet. On top of that it is a toxin and immune suppressant and as such often causes the outbreak of other diseases, most notably Lymphocystis.
Copper is also very unreliable if used at a dosage below the therapeutic level. And the calcium in rocks, sand and even the water will bind copper and cause levels to drop. quickly So twice daily copper tests and if needed redosing is required.

TTM is the better solution to get rid of Ich and other medications are more efficient against velvet (CP) or Brooklynella, Uronema and other ciliates (Formalin).

PraziPro is a good choice though.

 

[kenith]

I picked up the 72 yesterday and filled it with fresh saltwater. It will be bare bottom/lr free with the bacteria source coming from the biopellet reactor currently in my dt. Time is of the essence as the fish are looking worse from my suspected velvet outbreak. The copper levels will be full therapeutic level. When the copper treatment is done, I'll use carbon to remove it making the tank ready for the next inhabitants to be cleaned off.

I'm a full believer in ttm, my only issue is not having a cycled disease free tank to put them in after.

 

[tassod]

Keep in mind that TTM is only effective against ICH and nothing else. If it is indeed velvet you are dealing with, then i would not bother with TTM.

 

[kenith]

Keep in mind that TTM is only effective against ICH and nothing else. If it is indeed velvet you are dealing with, then i would not bother with TTM.

Hence the reason to start a qt tank capable of dealing with multiple diseases. Copper seems to be the best bet to keep the current livestock

 

[ThRoewer]

You got a picture of the sick fish?
Describe the symptoms and appearance in detail.

I haven't seen velvet in a long time (if ever) but recently very frequently brook. If your fish have brook then copper won't do a thing other than accelerating their demise.

But even if it is velvet Chloroquine Phospate (or CP around here) is more effective than copper.

 

[kenith]

I'm not positive its velvet, though symptom seems to point towards it. Some, not all the fish seems to have a velvety dullness on them, hard time breathing, along with some spots of ich. The fishes that have died seem to scratch themselves and show erratic behavior prior to perishing. The deaths of these fish seemed very sudden and close together as I've had some of these fish for more than a couple of months.

There aren't any slime coating from the pics I've seen of brook. Below are/were my live stock
Potters angel- dead
Pair snowflakes- dead
2 sunburst anthias- dead
3 female/1 male lyretail- dead
Pair orange skunk clowns- dead
Pair pink skunk clowns- 1 alive and shows some spots/hazy skin coat
Large leopard wrasse- alive and healthy
Red head salon wrasse- alive and healthy
Six line wrasse- alive and healthy
Pair benggai cardinals- alive and healthy
Pair fire fish- alive and healthy

 

[ThRoewer]

Is the dullness whitish or more rusty to golden looking?

Even if it's velvet copper isn't a good choice. Formalin baths are more efficient to clear the fish up quickly.

I would strongly suggest to read these articles:
Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum

I would also suggest to rethink the use of copper as it is primarily effective against Cryptocaryon, and especially against this parasite there are much better and more effective treatments available.

 

[kenith]

I stumbled upon the brook and uronema post about an hour ago. The symptoms seem identical to my situation. I think the treatment may be formalin baths between ttm. If this is the case, I think the wrasses would pull through better as I hear they do not tolerate copper very well.

Is the dullness whitish or more rusty to golden looking?

Even if it's velvet copper isn't a good choice. Formalin baths are more efficient to clear the fish up quickly.

I would strongly suggest to read these articles:
Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)
Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum

I would also suggest to rethink the use of copper as it is primarily effective against Cryptocaryon, and especially against this parasite there are much better and more effective treatments available.

 

[kenith]

According to snorvich, brook and uronema is difficult to distinguish. None of my fish have any lesions or vertical lines from what I've seen on uronema. Perhaps this is brook, in fact I hope it is since it seems leaving the tank fallow doesn't help with uronema as they can survive on bacteria alone. Can anyone confirm uronema entails lesions or vertical lines?

 

[ThRoewer]

Brook is the most likely.
Uronema almost always is more localized, usually using a wound as entry point and spreads somewhat circular from that. It also usually goes deep and causes bloody bordered ulcers. It is pretty easy to distinguish from all the others when you have seen it once.

Brook usually starts at the gills. The gills are usually the reservoir where the parasite sits in waiting until the fish is weakened by shipping or other suboptimal conditions. For this reason the first sign you see is heavy breathing.
From the gills the infection starts spreading quickly over the body, sometimes within only hours. The next you usually notice is that the fish clamp their fins and are covered with a faint whitish layer that usually starts spreading from the area behind the gills.
This layer gets thicker quickly and soon looks like the fish's skin is peeling. It can also form white lumps that may cause a false ich diagnosis.
Brook can most easily be confused with a bacterial infection.

 

[snorvich]

Brook is the most likely.
Uronema almost always is more localized, usually using a wound as entry point and spreads somewhat circular from that. It also usually goes deep and causes bloody bordered ulcers. It is pretty easy to distinguish from all the others when you have seen it once.

Brook usually starts at the gills. The gills are usually the reservoir where the parasite sits in waiting until the fish is weakened by shipping or other suboptimal conditions. For this reason the first sign you see is heavy breathing.
From the gills the infection starts spreading quickly over the body, sometimes within only hours. The next you usually notice is that the fish clamp their fins and are covered with a faint whitish layer that usually starts spreading from the area behind the gills.
This layer gets thicker quickly and soon looks like the fish's skin is peeling. It can also form white lumps that may cause a false ich diagnosis.
Brook can most easily be confused with a bacterial infection.

This. Uronema is uncommon unless chromis are involved.

 

[kenith]

This. Uronema is uncommon unless chromis are involved.

I do have chromis. 2 are doing well. I don't see any markings or infection sites. No slime coming off, but there's s white haze to the ones infected.

 

[ThRoewer]

If you are unsure what it is I would try CP. Though I wouldn't do it in the main tank because there you would need to treat longer and many had serious losses from unclear causes long after the infection was gone during the extended treatment times.
In a sterilized hospital tank 2 weeks of CP should be enough against brook, uronema and velvet. After the treatment the fish should be transferred to another uninfected holdin/quarantine tank while the main tank goes fallow for a total of 6 weeks.
Though Uronema will remain in the tank as it is opportunistic.

Formalin dips in combination with tank transfers also treat all the possible suspects (copper doesn't).

 

[kenith]

I am assuming (hoping its brook). I will be doing ttm along with formalin baths following snorvich's instructions on the dip/bath. I have the qt tank cycling now and should be ready by the time I catch the remaining fish and finish treatments. My dt will remain fallow for 8-10 weeks.

Below is my regimen:
Ttm
Formalin dips on days specified by snorvich
Formalin on the last transfer
Put them in observation tank

 

[kenith]

From the instructions from snorvich, a very effective treatment is a formalin bath followed by an low dose formalin continually in the qt. He did not specify how long that low dose formalin should last. Has anyone done so like described or would the preferred method be freshwater dips? My lfs stated that wrasses do not tolerate formalin well.

 

[ThRoewer]

I wouldn't do extended low dose formalin. First it is toxic and a carcinogen and while short baths may be a necessity to safe their lives, I wouldn't want expose my fish to it for a prolonged time. The other reason against it is that it depletes fast in saltwater but you can't easily test for it. So you need to redoes blind or remove whatever is left from the previous dose with a carbon filter before doing the next dose.

If you want to dose the TTM tanks I would rather use CP. It shouldn't deplete over 3 days and is highly effective against the parasites that may survive the formalin dips.
The only downside of CP is that some fish can't tolerate it (Pipefish, seahorses and their relatives and some wrasses).

 

[kenith]

Where are you guys sourcing chloroquine phosphate?

 

[kenith]

I wouldn't do extended low dose formalin. First it is toxic and a carcinogen and while short baths may be a necessity to safe their lives, I wouldn't want expose my fish to it for a prolonged time. The other reason against it is that it depletes fast in saltwater but you can't easily test for it. So you need to redoes blind or remove whatever is left from the previous dose with a carbon filter before doing the next dose.

If you want to dose the TTM tanks I would rather use CP. It shouldn't deplete over 3 days and is highly effective against the parasites that may survive the formalin dips.
The only downside of CP is that some fish can't tolerate it (Pipefish, seahorses and their relatives and some wrasses).

I caught all the fish and the formalin in 37% strength is due to arrive wednesday.