LFS vs Online stores (Live Aquaria/Bluzoo/etc)

I think the problem with your argument is that we have some lfs where i live that will get fish in and are available the same day.They could care less if they are eating or stressed.They could have other problems as well.I personally feel the industry as a whole does a **** poor job of getting the consumer healthy fish.Their are exceptions for sure such as divers den.I guess my feeling is that the bottom line dictates this but as a consumer my only recourse is to buy from the places that do handle the fish properly and actually care who they buy from as far as collectors in the field.I wish i could get a fish that was 100% parasite free but you wont find that anywhere as their are always a few that slip bye even the best place..It would be nice if i could just run the qt to aclimate the fish from being shipped but that doesnt happend because i dont trust any of the places 100%.If their was ever a place that actually had a marine biologist to gill scrape each fish to make sure their was no ich..how cool would that be.I know i would spend the extra money and get every fish from that place.I am not sure how realistic this mythical place would be but we can all dream.
 
It does not sound to me like buying online is going to help your fish survival rate. It sounds like if the bannerfish were eating and healthy in the store, then they went downhill when they went into your tank. Also I don't think it's unusual to lose that high percentage of chromis. they don't get along with one another. How old is your deep sand bed you mention. I think that this may be something to consider. Do you cover your tank? there could be o2 depletion. It sounds like a lot of fish dying. something's up.
 
LFS vs Online. Well, where do you think both get their fish from? Wholesalers. Which get multiple shipments from the various reefs throughout the week, but generally Sun-Wed most flights come in. From there they are unpacked by workers (low paid and sometime undocumented workers - nothing short of how produce gets to your table).

Some species are put in 20-30 gl holding tanks in multiples; others are put in individual 4"x4" cubicles. Corals are usually put in runways by species. They are fed mysis/brine...tangs usually have stalks of lettuce in their tanks. The dead are eventually removed throughout the day; the dying left to do just that.

So, if your LFS is close to a wholesaler portal then they most likely pick their own fish because the alternative is for the workers to fill (pick) the online retailers order via their own wholesaler online order...duh! They don't see the fish they are buying at wholesale to sell to you at retail...and thus I suspect they have a much higher mortality rate.

There are so many fish and corals at the wholesalers that are in a state of illness. No LFS that is hand-picking their fish are going to take a chance on a fish that is showing signs of stress...not in this economy. So think about it...where do they go? Do you think the wholesaler is going to take the whole hit and send only the best of their stock to the online retailers? And that's assuming that you believe "management" is quality checking those outbound orders. No, they hand a worker a pick sheet and he nets, bags and packs.

I think if more hobbyists were to have a chance to tour the wholesaler facilities and see first hand how many unhealthy specimens are housed after the flight from the reef, then they might start thinking about their ethical responsibility in this industry/hobby. To keep a reef you should understand that for every one healthy fish or coral you have that dozens if not hundreds died due to poor catch procedures or shipment stress. IMHO, you have a responsibility to educate yourself so your one fish or coral not only survives, but thrives in your tank...and to aquaculture or support those efforts where they exist.

When I go with my LFS owner to the wholesaler to pick her inventory I see all the local LFS competition, plus a few local based "online retailers" picking their own stock. Then I see the pickers packing shipments for some of those bigger name online retailers...is that worker concerned about the crap on a fin or the cloudy eye before he bags? - I doubt it.

Bottom line...the fish all come from the same local wholesalers...there is no magical place with perfect conditions...most of these places are hot, stinky and have terrible lighting. But at least I know the owner of my LFS goes to great lengths to care for her inventory once they hit the shop and to inform her clients of how long they've been in stock. And yes, sometimes the fish look good, but within the week the whole lot may die off with that particular species. Is it the LFS's water or acclimation process since everything else is fine? Or is it collection or shipment stress/procedures at the wholesalers?

Before you buy livestock you should not only test your water, but ask the LFS what salinity, Ph and temp. their stock is housed in. I see it countless times...people coming in for that pretty purple fish and talking about how all their other fish have been fine for years and their water is "where it should be." But test their water and the salinity is at 1.028, Ph at 7.8 and I dare say their temp is probably different (so how do they acclimate). The LFS on the other hand is housing at 1.021, Ph 8.3, temp at 77...they work to keep their tanks stable by testing weekly...because they have thousands of dollars of inventory at any given time...losing that at any rate could wipe them out of business.

Lastly, when your pump breaks at 6pm on any given day I seriously doubt you are trying to get a hold of Marine Depot or Drs Foster & Smith for immediate help. If LFS stores continue to disappear, then this hobby will begin to change for the worse in my opinion.


Unless you live in LA, there is no way for the LFS to cherry pick at a wholesaler, so that doesnt apply to 99.9% of America. You clearly have not visited Quality Marine or Sea Dwelling Creatures.
 
wrong

wrong

Unless you live in LA, there is no way for the LFS to cherry pick at a wholesaler, so that doesnt apply to 99.9% of America. You clearly have not visited Quality Marine or Sea Dwelling Creatures.

IN illinois all fish stores can cherry pick their fish and corals at the various wholesalers aroun the ohare airport area. please get your facts straight.
 
It does not sound to me like buying online is going to help your fish survival rate. It sounds like if the bannerfish were eating and healthy in the store, then they went downhill when they went into your tank. Also I don't think it's unusual to lose that high percentage of chromis. they don't get along with one another. How old is your deep sand bed you mention. I think that this may be something to consider. Do you cover your tank? there could be o2 depletion. It sounds like a lot of fish dying. something's up.


well first off losing 70% of chromis i would say is outrageous imo second off if there was o2 problems why do all my other fish have no problems? the big tank has been up for over a year with few issues, and the other 75 like 3 months and have had 2 clown fish in there with no issues. my sand in tank is about 2-3" deep, and i run a RDSB as mentioned earlier that has 8" of sand in it. losing all these fish is over probably a 6month period so its not like im losing them all in a 2-3weeks. ha i dont have money to throw away like that.
 
Lol. Please tell me the name of the places. I want to visit them.

There's a wholesaler near me & the retailers can go in there & pick what they want also.
My friend has a retail license and he has offered me a chance to go in there & buy fish for my own tanks. Only problem for me is there is a minimum purchase in dollars that is high. From what I know it's mostly the common type fish.

I don't know how many retailers this place supplies but they have been around for years.
 
i think the problem with the 75 is the 2 dead bannerfish you list on the stock list. my tanks always do better if i remove the dead fish. just kidding about that i have a good local pet store that i have excellent survival rates from. i have also ordered from both dfs and blue zoo both have been great. my only bad online fish order has been from nyaquatics. i have had massive die off of things they have shipped me, some of it hasnt even been alive when it got to my house. my bottom line is there are good and bad local pet stores and online pet stores.
 
If jub jub has plenty of experience, can we give him the benefit of the doubt and start looking what might be happening outside of his tank parameters.

JubJub this must be very frustrating for you to lose so much livestock and $$.

Someone mentioned testing the LFS's water.. You can do that with the bag of water they give you... Do ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, salinity, ph, alk tests. Hold them to the same standards you hold yourself to!

If any of those are significantly different than yours, it's possible the acclimation won't be enough. e.g. if they're running really high or really extremely low alk, the fish may be adapted to that and may eventually have died down the road from it, but for now seemed healthy. Then they get shocked by changes in your alk, and die.

It sounds like there's some obscure difference that the livestock is being intolerant.. this would apply both tanks, b/c if you keep your parameters on both tanks similar and have similar routines / maintenance, then both could be different enough from the LFS water to kill the livestock.

It may not be that you're doing something wrong, it may be that you're water and maintenance is too right....

I know it sucks, but, it sounds like you may have to start testing the LFS water....
 
thanks everyone for the great advice....i'd like to test their water but im afraid to buy anything else lol..
 
well first off losing 70% of chromis i would say is outrageous imo second off if there was o2 problems why do all my other fish have no problems? the big tank has been up for over a year with few issues, and the other 75 like 3 months and have had 2 clown fish in there with no issues. my sand in tank is about 2-3" deep, and i run a RDSB as mentioned earlier that has 8" of sand in it. losing all these fish is over probably a 6month period so its not like im losing them all in a 2-3weeks. ha i dont have money to throw away like that.

well first off these were just thoughts. It just seems unlikely to me that it is the fault of multiple stores in the greater Sac area and has nothing to do with what youre working with. Do you buy the fish the day they come in or do you have them put them on hold so you can make sure the fish is healthy. Over a 6 month period I have heard of people losing 70% of chromis. Of course in your original post you say that this happened over a 2 month period. I know a lot of people have asked you about water quality and your acclimation process and it's not what you want to here, but it just seems the most likely cause. just trying to help. I'm going to reach out again...do you acclimate in a container that could have become contaminated?
 
ok something is wrong here...
go back to the basic rules:

1. observe the fish for a week or weekly prior to buying it from the LFS. Do not buy on instinct. Never buy fish that just arrived, unless you know who the supplier is. Some fish are captured straight from the ocean, than boxed than shipped out causing alot of stress.

2.you could always put a hold on a fish, to check if it has any diseases. always, ask the LFS how long they had the fish in the store.

3. always, ask the LFS to feed the fish in your presence.

I know sometimes you feel that you have to buy, because it will not be there if you do not buy. But you want a specimen that will survive not die on you, especially when saltwater fish tend to be spendy.
 
Of the probably 25 stores that sell saltwater fish/corals that I have visited in the Sacramento and Bay Area regions, I can only think of 3 that I would consider buying fish from and none who I would do so without a careful inspected + asking to see the fish eat in front of me. On the flip side, I would feel very good about getting a fish from one of several online retailers (LA, Bluezoo, Reefhotspot).
 
ok something is wrong here...
go back to the basic rules:

1. observe the fish for a week or weekly prior to buying it from the LFS. Do not buy on instinct. Never buy fish that just arrived, unless you know who the supplier is. Some fish are captured straight from the ocean, than boxed than shipped out causing alot of stress.

2.you could always put a hold on a fish, to check if it has any diseases. always, ask the LFS how long they had the fish in the store.

3. always, ask the LFS to feed the fish in your presence.

I know sometimes you feel that you have to buy, because it will not be there if you do not buy. But you want a specimen that will survive not die on you, especially when saltwater fish tend to be spendy.

Any LFS worth its salt (hehe) should be willing to both feed the fish in front of you and put on at least a temporary hold. I think a 1 week hold for new fish and a few days for fish that have been at the LFS for a while is reasonable. If you get to know the staff at a favorite store and they can trust you to actually buy what you ask to be held, they will often give you more leeway with holds. On the flip side, nothing will erode any trust you have built up like asking for fish to be held and the not following through.

When I was in HS, I used to work at an LFS that would hold fish for longer than "normal" (up to several weeks) if you paid for the fish up front and only got your money back if it died before the holding time was up. LFS policies vary, but I like that one the best.
 
Not sure I'm allowed to say the name, but that is what an online retailer is doing for me. I"ve been trying to get a pair of marine betas for approximately 3 to 4 weeks now.. THey had set aside 2 for me on Monday, and I asked them to ship on the Friday for Saturday delivery.. Well Thursday the company emailed me and informed me 1 died and the other was pretty sick.. Fast forward to This past Friday, they were going to ship me another pair, the sales rep I was working with, personally fed and watched my fish for 15 minutes to see if they were feeding late Thursday afternoon. He replied stating they weren't eating then, but may have been fed by someone else earlier.

Friday morning he personally saw to feeding the fish again, and they were still not feeding and beelies were looking sunk in. He emailed me stating all this and indicated he wants those two quarantined and wants to set aside another pair for me.

If they are willing to work for me that hard, I feel very good that whatever I get will be of good quality.
 
welp the klien died today been almost 7 or 8 days.... he was eating just fine then just found him dead today.

its beyond me considering 2 false clowns have been in that tank for months now with no issues.

the tank is a std 75gal 3" sand bed about 85lbs of rock has ato hooked up. ASM G1x meshmodded/gate valved....2 bulb vho lighting

i feed the tanks my home made fish food same recipe for both tanks....
 
Well, when push comes to shove, a 14 day unconditional guarantee is what you want from either online or LFS. Anything else is, in my opinion, insufficient.
 
Well, when push comes to shove, a 14 day unconditional guarantee is what you want from either online or LFS. Anything else is, in my opinion, insufficient.

+1 several OFS do this now, however I have yet to see an LFS do this. Maybe in other parts of the country.
 
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