Lights... hit me...

[jayball]

Also, for anyone thinking of buying Chinese LED, you don't save any power by turning them down, they use 1-10v dimming not PWM, you only increase resistance which uses the same power.

This is incorrect, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how LED drivers work. In addition to the fact that it is easily demonstrated with something as simple as a kill-o-watt meter I would challenge you to find something inside the box that could dissipate that kind of power

 

[Potatohead]

I'd love to see BRS do the same test using what I think is a better led fixture. One that has the leds in an array rather than one using a puck or two.

They have. They tested the Philips CoralCare, which price aside is considered possibly the best LED reef light on the market. They found it actually uses 10% more power than the comparable 24x8 Sunpower, and puts out about 5% less par (and they didn't use the highest par bulbs either). They later tested it with the diffuser screen off and found par increased but light spread was not nearly as good.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/P3buToJrfX4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Bronx: We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.
Me: Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro is listed on Fosters for $799.
Bronx: The price of leds will never come down

What is going on here? Is math different in the US?

 

[Potatohead]

G4 Pro was never $1300, I'm not sure if that was a typo or something on his part. EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing and the stuff is virtually the same price anywhere with a couple 10% off sales once or twice a year.

 

[Ron Reefman]

They have. They tested the Philips CoralCare, which price aside is considered possibly the best LED reef light on the market. They found it actually uses 10% more power than the comparable 24x8 Sunpower, and puts out about 5% less par (and they didn't use the highest par bulbs either). They later tested it with the diffuser screen off and found par increased but light spread was not nearly as good.

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:

And why is it if the t5 puts out more PAR than the led, the led gets run at partial power to avoid coral damage and all t5's are simply plug & play? If it can't out PAR a t5 it's lame. I still challenge BRS to use a good quality high end Chinese array fixture like a 32" Photon V2. Reasonably priced, great PAR, good coverage and lots of control.

 

[Potatohead]

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:

You can believe whatever you want to believe. Philips has been in business for 120 years and is the largest lighting manufacturer in the world. No other LED built to this point has the same kind of spread* as this does. You asked for a light without clusters and a wider surface area to be tested - It has, and you can't genuinely believe Chinese black boxes are better than the PCC.

And why is it if the t5 puts out more PAR than the led, the led gets run at partial power to avoid coral damage and all t5's are simply plug & play?

Hot spots. It is not about overall PAR, anybody can make a light with 2000 par in one square inch. You also do not want 200 par, then 300 par three inches over, then 150 par another three inches over, and this is where T5 absolutely rules the roost.


*When I refer to spread, I am talking about even light distribution throughout the footprint of the tank. I'm not referring to the actual cast footprint of the light.

 

[Dugless]

Let's not forget that brightness isn't the only measure of a capable light source. LEDs lean heavily on 'blending' different points of light to create a their spectrum. This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank! Even with hundreds of lights, there will be spots heavy in blue or lacking red, etc. The thought is that there is more control with adjustments and fancy settings, but the resulting light is highly variable in comparison.

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

"EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing"

That maintains a MINIMUM price, not maximum. It has still fallen in price substantially from when first introduced.
btw: why MAP is still legal in the US, I have no idea. I think a couple of states outlawed it, but dont quote me on that.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

"This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank!"

That makes little sense to me. The light gets scattered everywhere. Especially with a kessil tightly pack led cluster and wide angle lens.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.

Have to disagree here as well. LED advancements in design and engineering are soon usually copied by all manufacturers. All thats different for our application is the color of the diodes used. No?

 

[Potatohead]

Let's not forget that brightness isn't the only measure of a capable light source. LEDs lean heavily on 'blending' different points of light to create a their spectrum. This is a big drawback for LEDs, the delivered spectrum is different everywhere in the tank! Even with hundreds of lights, there will be spots heavy in blue or lacking red, etc. The thought is that there is more control with adjustments and fancy settings, but the resulting light is highly variable in comparison.

I also think it's unfair to mention LEDs in street lights and buildings. This is a totally different game and has nothing to do with reef capable lighting.

This is a great point. The spectrum shift in some of BRS's testing is yuge!

"EcoTech has very strict MAP pricing"

That maintains a MINIMUM price, not maximum. It has still fallen in price substantially from when first introduced.

You don't say? I wonder what the 'm' stands for?

The lights were not $1300 when they debuted, not even close. Ecotech is not in the business of lowering prices of their latest and greatest products. You being the marketing guy you are, will understand that. In fact, here's a link from reef builders (fill it in) from April 2016 that shows MSRP of $799.

https://************.com/2016/08/15/radion-g4-pro-led/

 

[Editour2]

following......

 

[Bronx19]

Bronx: We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.
Me: Currently the retail price of EcoTech Marine Radion™ XR30W G4 Pro is listed on Fosters for $799.
Bronx: The price of leds will never come down

What is going on here? Is math different in the US?

You missed the first few words, 'I'm an Aussie". They cost A$1200 right now. And I've also done the original comparison in pounds given the OP is using pounds.

$US

2011- Radion XR30w G1 - $749

2012 - Radion XR30w G2 - $549
2012 - Radion XR30w Pro G2 - $649

2014 - Radion XR30w G3 - $649
2014 - Radion XR30w Pro G3 - $749

2016 - Radion XR30w G4 - $649
2016 - Radion XR30w Pro G4 - $799

2018 - Take a guess.

Ron,

There is thread after thread, some a hundred pages long about which settings to use on your LED unit.
I'm spitting the facts, T5 is plug and play, all you change is the hanging height. You need to know how high, which intensity and which spectrum to get LED right, they require more fiddling and more community support.

I agree completely that weather effects ect are useless, but people buy what humans like to look at, not what grows coral. T5 is all about growing coral, no gimmicks.

I'm not sure you actually disagree with me on any of the topics I listed. I say T5 is superior at coverage, lighting branches, installation, ect, and you tell me 'yeah, a little bit, but so what'.

As soon as you're tank is too long/wide for one LED unit, economically the technology is screwed. Its a hundred bucks to go to a longer T5 fixture but its a fortune for another LED unit.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

You don't say? I wonder what the 'm' stands for?

It stands what I said it stands for: "Minimum Advertised Pricing (or MAP, as it is more commonly referred) is the lowest price a retailer can advertise the product for sale."

The lights were not $1300 when they debuted, not even close. Ecotech is not in the business of lowering prices

heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.

You being the marketing guy you are, will understand that. In fact, here's a link from reef builders (fill it in) from April 2016 that shows MSRP of $799.

So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

 

[Dugless]

Sorry, but I have not a single bone in my body that thinks the Philips fixture is anything special other than the ridiculous price! Just what makes it so special other than Philips saying it's so?:headwally:

I still challenge BRS to use a good quality high end Chinese array fixture like a 32" Photon V2. Reasonably priced, great PAR, good coverage and lots of control.

The Phillips light has been very popular with the European market because it is currently the best solution at overcoming the shortfalls with LEDs. It offers the best solution at diffusing and mixing lights, the biggest hurdles that still challenge LEDs. I wouldn't discount the progress they've made just because you've had success with your Chinese fixtures.

 

[Bronx19]

heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.
So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

You need to read my replies again.

This has been...um...educational. I love a good internet scrag.

I'm mulling over my options like Gweeds so my observations are as a rank novice.

I see very, very few Australian reefers opting for anything but LED.

I clearly replied to an Australian, as an Australian, in Australian dollars. You think I'm going to type US$1300 on this forum and say its so?

I happen to be Aussie. Then there is the price we pay for these. Its a joke. We were up to almost $1300 at launch for a G4 Pro.

Not only that, but I have made the T5/LED comparison in the OPs native currency (pound), in A$ for us Aussies and listed the launch prices of all Radions in US$. In summary:

ATI T5 - A$630
Radion G4 Pro - A$1200 (now)

ATI T5 - £430
Radion G4 Pro - £700 (now)

ATI T5 - US$450
Radion G4 Pro - US$800 (now)

You buy one LED unit, its 3 years to break even.
You buy two LED units, its a decade.

 

[Stolireef]

Gweeds, Congrats on creating a monster thread:celeb2:

So, to sum up the last 180 or so posts...in someone's opinion...
MH Good
T5 Good
LED Good
Combos maybe better

If you like your light, you can keep your light.
If you don't like your light, you can buy a different light.

SPS are hard but not stylos, pocis, or seriatapora.

I think I should write haiku. :hmm4:

I like being a simpleton.:deadhorse:

 

[Bronx19]

Gweeds, Congrats on creating a monster thread:celeb2:

So, to sum up the last 180 or so posts...in someone's opinion...
MH Good
T5 Good
LED Good
Combos maybe better

Combo best
T5 excellent
LED good

 

[Potatohead]

It stands what I said it stands for: "Minimum Advertised Pricing (or MAP, as it is more commonly referred) is the lowest price a retailer can advertise the product for sale

No kidding. I was being facetious. You're not the only one here who works in sales and marketing.

heh heh you better tell that to Bronx..and he said nothing about Aussie dollars. If it was, it was left out intentionally to mislead I'm rather certain.

So why did Bronx say it was $1300? It was used to mislead. If I was to come on here and starting quoting Cdn prices (which are 25% higher than US ones) without saying it was actually $1300Cdn..what would you think I would be trying to do with you?
Mislead you perhaps?

What? Can you provide any logical reason why Bronx, who is arguing that LED prices are not going to come down, would suggest the prices a year ago were nearly double they are today? Does that make any sense?

 

[ComforablyNumb]

I clearly replied to an Australian, as an Australian, in Australian dollars.

I'll concede the first two parts, but I would not necessarily be aware you were speaking in aus dollars. And I was not. And neither was Potatohead: "I'm not sure if that was a typo or something on his part.