Lights... hit me...

[ComforablyNumb]

You didn't get the point. Be respectful when you disagree.

This lighting issue is not settled science.. and I will push back on anyone who says so. mH works, t5 works, LED works.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

has choked polyp extension and dying undersides

Cut it out please. That particular pic was taken about 15 minutes after the lights came on. Of course the polyps are not fully extended.
And as far as the undersides are "dying"..you would not say that if you saw the coral in person, I'm sure.
That lower branch, as I explained before in this thread, was burned by anemone ..but it is gradually recovering.

Please stop making silly assumptions. It is quite annoying.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Very few experienced hobbyists voice their opinions within forums anymore. .

Could that be because of people like you perhaps? Slam a new hobbyist or even some older ones.. and they will either shut up or just quit. I won't.

 

[Dugless]

I'm confused... Nothing I said was disrespectful. You keep calling others out for disrespect, but they're just giving a differing opinion. That is not a respect issue.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

"Chinese and future proof aren't two things often associated with one another. Good luck with your plans!"
(btw: tell that to Apple who make all their phones there and they seem to last alright)

"The irregular and thin non-branching growth are telling that this stylophora was grown under single point lighting with poor refraction." I did not take that as a compliment, to my coral or my husbandry... altho it was not personally insulting.

"I'm not sure how long it has been since your transition to LEDs, but I would encourage you to reassess your coral health after 6-8 months to see if growth and color are still as good. Most go the route of slowly adding more LED fixtures as they aren't providing enough light."
I should have addressed that at the time you posted it. Its been almost 2yrs since I did the transition. And I DID reassess my corals after 8 months. And I assessed them side by side (mH and kessil) for a couple of months when I first bought one Kessil to try them. They are healthy, growing and thriving. I actually have an extra kessil, but I dont use it because I do not need it. I keep it in the event I am stupid enough to dunk a lit kessil in saltwater as I did once. Yours is an assumption that is clearly incorrect.

"If you want lower cost, LEDs are the worst option of the bunch. This was the marketed story in the beginning, but the argument holds no water now. Most don't even break even with bulb replacement until 5-7 years down the road."
..I still say that is entirely your opinion and not in fact the truth. Go see my example on a previous page where I itemize the cost of both types of lighting over 5 yrs please.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

As far as the other:

"simpleton statements" <--annoyed someone else, not me.. but I can certainly see why they were annoyed
"You'll go broke buying LEDs before you plug them in.
none of them will perform to the T5 standard" (pffffft)
"Point source lighting cannot hit SPS the way T5 does, fact." (not fact)
"It's pretty clear to anyone with eyes that T5 provides, way, way better coverage and light spread than LED"
"Not trying to be a jerk here, but it's a stylo which isn't difficult, and in the last pic the underside is white, which is kind of proving our/my point." (yawn)
"Oh c'mon, stylos don't count" (yes they do.. to me)
"So are algae, aiptasia and monti eating nudibranchs but that doesn't mean I want them in my reef"
"if you expect people to take you seriously"
"a stylo with a dead LPS skeleton behind it"
"You can see the undersides of those branches are bone"
"the coral has an obvious issue because it was lit by LED lighting"
"frankencorals"

What most folks prefer:
"I may go back to LED at some point but I can't see doing that for a long time because I've been there and done that. You may feel the opposite and that is fine too."

And this is all in ONE THREAD!

 

[Potatohead]

Just let it go man, you're just being defensive at this point. If you are happy with your tank that is all that matters.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Just let it go man, you're just being defensive at this point.

lol..he asked me. Should I have not answered? And why the characterization of being defensive?

I spent 25 yrs as a marketing exec for a Fortune 100 company..I can easily recognise underhanded swipes when I see them. One thing I learned in all those years of direct professional experience..words matter.

 

[Bronx19]

You seem to have great issue with my statement that point source light cant hit undersides of acros. How does light change direction from downward to sideways?

We've grown acro under LED, we've seen the dark spots in tanks under LED. Its very simple. Watch a few BRS lighting videos.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

You seem to have great issue with my statement that point source light cant hit undersides of acros. How does light change direction from downward to sideways?

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

Watch a few BRS lighting videos.

I have..and I learned another thing from my marketing days. People tend to promote what they have in stock or what they make the most money from. I sold tens of millions of dollars worth of things to retail to great business people who would re-sell our goods to consumers just like the good folks at BRS do. So I am quite aware of the motivations of retailers. Advice tends to mirror inventory. The best is always what they own.

edit - I will even tell you who I worked for...Levi Strauss & Co.
Yes, blue jeans and Dockers paid my mortgage and also helped fund my various hobbies and interests.

 

[Fredfish]

I will use the sample you have posted for comparison, and I will try explaining this one last time. It doesn't take many years of experience to discern which of these corals pictured is healthier...

Shape and colour have absolutely nothing to do with the health of a coral. You are confusing a community preference with health.

 

[Stolireef]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.

Yep. I decided to do some research on this. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a single scientific study on light refraction/reflection in an aquarium. So, if I can borrow a PAR meter (and I can), I'm going to my friend's house who uses old school AI SOLs to light his tank with very mature colonies in areas that are 'shaded'. I'm then going to another friends house who lights his tank with MH and T5 (and also has very mature colonies) and try the same experiment. Let's see if the point source argument holds up. I can't control for the different sized tanks or for the infinite variety of coral shapes, but at least we can start to examine the problem from a more scientific perspective.

My hypothesis is that the MH/T5 system will show slightly better lighting in shaded areas but that the T5 will be the primary culprit rather than the MH. We'll be able to identify this by measuring par with each light. I'd love to do this using controls but unfortunately, every reef tank is a unique environment.

One other thing...I've found that the growth habits of SPS are more influenced by flow than light. SPS will grow thicker and more proportional (wrong word but I'm tired) if flow is extremely strong and very random.

 

[Stolireef]

edit - I will even tell you who I worked for...Levi Strauss & Co.
Yes, blue jeans and Dockers paid my mortgage and also helped fund my various hobbies and interests.

And, as a long time Levi's wearer, nothing's better than the original button fly. Unfortunately, they've started selling much thinner denim that doesn't hold up nearly as well. I remember dragging my jeans behind my bike to break them in.

 

[Bronx19]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas

It does not work the same way at all, and if you had a completely bare tank you might get some refraction but with rock work, sand bottom and film algae you will get bugger all. You only need compare the coverage area of T5 and LED.

 

[Bronx19]

Yep. I decided to do some research on this. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a single scientific study on light refraction/reflection in an aquarium. So, if I can borrow a PAR meter (and I can), I'm going to my friend's house who uses old school AI SOLs to light his tank with very mature colonies in areas that are 'shaded'. I'm then going to another friends house who lights his tank with MH and T5 (and also has very mature colonies) and try the same experiment. Let's see if the point source argument holds up. I can't control for the different sized tanks or for the infinite variety of coral shapes, but at least we can start to examine the problem from a more scientific perspective.

My hypothesis is that the MH/T5 system will show slightly better lighting in shaded areas but that the T5 will be the primary culprit rather than the MH. We'll be able to identify this by measuring par with each light. I'd love to do this using controls but unfortunately, every reef tank is a unique environment.
.

Its all been done for you, BRS have done and are currently taking a comprehensive look at this very topic. LED burns hot in the middle and drops rapidly to the side.

All the pros of T5, from Ryan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61DTnWKGjc&t=902s

 

[Fredfish]

The same way it does with mH, t5 and LED. Refraction off the glass, reflection off the bottom and surrounding areas. I have two kessils, they overlap in coverage somewhat and many of my corals get light from the other at a different angle.
Does it provide compete light underneath corals..of course not. I dont think the others do either..but I am open to being corrected.

Refraction and LEDs are an interesting thing. I've seen tanks lit by Radions that showed no polyp growth on the underside and some that do. I don't know what the differences between tanks with similar setups are, but there can be a large difference.

In general, you need to work harder with clustered LED setups like Kessil or Radions then you do with Lights like the Reefbreeders where the LEDs are more evenly distributed over a larger area. T5 tubes are the king of distributed light, but I absolutely hate that flat look.

Disco is another disadvantage, but I don't seem to be very sensitive to the colour separation you can get with LEDs.

People tend to love what they love and hate everything else. Remember Chevy vs Ford vs Chrysler in the good old days?

These sorts of 'discussions' go on with every lighting transition. I can remember people raving about how they could actually get corals to grow under industrial HID lighting, and when Iwasaki 65 Ks were king of the hill and everything else was Bantha Poodoo.

Things change. Some people don't like that.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

And, as a long time Levi's wearer, nothing's better than the original button fly. Unfortunately, they've started selling much thinner denim that doesn't hold up nearly as well. I remember dragging my jeans behind my bike to break them in.

lol..I hear stories like that quite often. And I still love to hear them. Jean jackets used to tow cars, etc. Levi's chose to abandon all N.American production about 8 yrs ago, not long before I left. They closed 33 manufacturing/distribution facilities in the US and 4 in Canada. 22,000 good employees were laid off and the same number of families suffered. And Trump isn't bringing those jobs home. lol..wish he could but its impossible. I dont know who believed that, but anyway...I held on for another couple of yrs, but I had done well and was ready to retire at age 55. We were proud to print on our labels "Union made with pride in the USA" or Canada.
They can no longer say that and it put a BIG crimp into our marketing which I did..because we had always marketed our product as an American icon.



Quite sad what happened to whole industry actually. But whatcha gonna do?
I still wear dockers and 501's exclusively but it irks me to look at the label now where they say now Made in Bangladesh or India.

EDIT..but its the same from Apple to Kessil. American design, made overseas.

 

[Fredfish]

It does not work the same way at all, and if you had a completely bare tank you might get some refraction but with rock work, sand bottom and film algae you will get bugger all. You only need compare the coverage area of T5 and LED.

You are correct, T5 generate light in more directions than LEDs, but that is only part of the story.

FWIW, the sun is a point source of light, but you get quite a bit of diffraction in the ocean. MH is also a point source.

With LEDs lenses and how LEDs are clustered have a large effect on how much diffraction you get. Blanket statements regarding LEDs are not of much value.

 

[Dugless]

Shape and colour have absolutely nothing to do with the health of a coral. You are confusing a community preference with health.

I disagree with you here. While I agree that flow impacts structural growth as much as lighting, shape and color are most definitely indicative of health. If not assessing these things, how does one perceive a healthy coral?