LisaD and Justinpsmith

[LauraCline]

I stand corrected regarding our earlier discussion regarding puffers and copper being toxic. Although this study is not on puffers and was a small study, I feel it is well conducted and has merit. They also referred to some other studies documenting the effects of copper that I had not encountered previously. Here it is in case anyone hasn't seen it.


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder

 

[bluedevils32701]

Laura

some puffers are sensitive to copper, but my buddy owns a LFS and has numerous puffers in his systems that he runs copper in and they do not show any type of reaction. Also the local wholesalers run copper in the systems with hundreds of dogface puffers. i have treated my golden puffers with copper as well and never had any trouble. I also use cupramine which is "safer" less toxic form.

 

[saltyESQ]

usually when LFS run copper it is at very low dose.

 

[LauraCline]

bluedevils32701, somebody was asking about treating a puffer for ich and I mentioned that I had treated my Toby Puffer (Canthigaster Epilamprus) and Purple Pseudochromis with copper over a year ago with no ill effects. My LFS also has used it on puffers with no problems and advised me to use it in that case. I was told more or less that this was bad advice and that the copper would shorten their lifespans. I asked for studies backing that up but there really weren't any large, controlled, replicated studies proving cause and effect. Mostly what is available is opinion, anecdotal info and small studies. Although this study was small, it was well conducted. I found the outcomes interesting and feel that it will lead to further study. These types of experiments are what has advanced the hobby. I'm hoping that one day this will lead to a better treatment that is effective and non-toxic to fish. I know alot of people insist on hypo for ich but IMO, we know that there are strains of ich that are resistant to hypo, it requires patience and vigilence which is difficult to maintain for some hobbyists, there is a low margin for error for it to be effective, it can cause problems for the fish, and like everything else - we don't really don't know the long term effect.

 

[LisaD]

Thanks for the article LauraCline.

 

[JustinReef]

Great article

Thank you for sharing!

 

[LargeAngels]

Thanks for the article and studies like these are great. But they should have tested copper treatments such as Cupramine also in a side by side test. We know that some species (such as flame and multicolor angels) are sensitive to the standard copper treatments.

Like bluedevils32701 I also use Cupramine and wouldn't use any other copper treatment.

 

[LisaD]

If I were using copper, I'd also use Cupramine. SeaChem is a good company, I use many of their products.

I don't use copper, as I've posted before, because I made the decision that I'm unwilling to take the risk. Weighing risks vs benefits of different treatments is seldom easy.

I've found a treatment that while very labor intensive, works for me, especially if the DT becomes infected. I would not put copper in my DT. The number and size of my fish does not allow me to set up a hospital tank if the DT is affected.

So far, all fish in QT have responded to other treatments when they showed signs of ich or velvet. If necessary, I would treat with Cupramine in a QT, but so far it has not been necessary.

Because I've kept seahorses for years, and they are very sensitive to copper, I've gotten in the habit not using it. As far as I know, seahorses don't seem to get ich or velvet, but they do get a lot of other funky stuff and can go downhill very fast. Serious seahorse keepers need to be vigilant and knowledgeable about medications. I never thought about meds that much before I kept seahorses.

 

[bluedevils32701]

good info Laura!

 

[LargeAngels]

I've never used it, but supposedly the transfer method works. Basically every three days you move the fish to a new, clean, sterile aquarium. This is done a total of three times.

 

[Recty]

I dont think I'd feel safe about the transfer method unless I was doing it daily.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13567814#post13567814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Recty
I dont think I'd feel safe about the transfer method unless I was doing it daily.

I think the transfer method is suppose to be done every few days, if not daily. You basically have two tanks. Fish are in one and then in a day or two you move them to the other. Drain the first one and then fill it with new water. Repeat a few times and you still have ich

One of the strangest treatments I have ever heard of unless I am missing something. The problem is there is always going to be ich in your tanks and most likely in all stages of the lifecycle. So you are just moving the ich around with the fish. You can probably reduce the numbers greatly with this method but I doubt rid your fish of ich.

I could wrong though.

 

[LauraCline]

I agree with Justin regarding the transfer method. It would work if they were all in the same stage but that just isn't reality. Not only that, it is impossible not to get a little of the water from the infected tank to the clean one. Also, catching and moving fish is stressful, more so when they are sick.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13568655#post13568655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LauraCline
I agree with Justin regarding the transfer method. It would work if they were all in the same stage but that just isn't reality. Not only that, it is impossible not to get a little of the water from the infected tank to the clean one. Also, catching and moving fish is stressful, more so when they are sick.

Yeah my fish are not too pleased moving once to QT and hate being there. I can't imagine catching them daily or even weekly to move them. Seems kind of cruel almost.

 

[LargeAngels]

Three day Transfer Details: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

 

[billsreef]

The transfer method works quite well. The idea is that has the trophonts drop off, you move the fish to clean tank and the fish doesn't get reinfected. Do this transfer enough times, and all the ich trophonts will have falling off without any reinfection Labor intensive, but works well.

 

[cthetoy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13570062#post13570062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Three day Transfer Details: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

I was thinking instead of cleaning and drying the tank that I could empty a few gallons of water, boil it and add it to the fishless tank. Temp would be at least 125 degrees which should kill all the ich.

 

[hottuna]

BILLSREEF : have you done the 3 day transfer method...???

enlighten us, please...

 

[billsreef]

I have done the transfer method a number of years ago to see if it worked for myself. It did work. As noted in ATJ's article (the link LargeAngels posted), it is a bit labor intensive. The stress on the fish from moving can be mitigated by good capture technique using a clear container to trap the fish vs. a net. However, due to space and often time constraints, I find myself using hyposalinity most often, followed by copper.

 

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13570062#post13570062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Three day Transfer Details: http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

It's not that I dont trust the transfer method, I just would want to do it daily instead of every 3 days.