Live BlackWorms: Best Fish and LPS Food Ever?
- Thread starter Ycore
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Matt_Wandell
New member
Totally agreed. I almost posted "I'd be hard pressed to think of an item that reef fish eat that is so fatty" and then quickly realized what I said myself earlier--fish eggs. Some anthias eat as much as 50% of their diet in fish eggs. So for some fish these are likely entirely appropriate on a regular basis. For others, like say tangs or rabbitfish, not so much.
Matt_Wandell
New member
Hi Paul,
Ever consider that, since you are culturing them yourself, your experience with the worms as food (and their nutritional and heavy metal content) may be very different from someone who buys them from a LFS and feeds them out "as is"?
Big E
Premium Member
Could be........my Muelleri has a rounded belly & I feed raw frozen scallop, shrimp, & clam about 95% of the time for 7 years.
The thing I notice more is a butterfly can have a full round belly & body but over the years they get that slight concave look in the head above the eyes.........some sort of nutritional deficiency. I saw it in a couple of my semis. I fed them more of the commercial frozen foods like Formula 1 & 2 back then.
I think those go hand in hand... rounded belly...7 years
Congrats!!Yes, I've seen the pinched forehead on BF's before. Not sure if this is related, but I recently received a male clownfish with an EXTREMELY pinched forehead. This clown was in the care of an experienced breeder. The female showed no such signs. I've heard that clowns, once they get this, don't recover. I fed heavily, with large portions of LBW every day, and he recovered.
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huskerreef
New member
I have official made it on the LBW bandwagon. I recieved my order today and the fish seemed to gobble them up. Everyone has a big fat belly now. How long will they keep? I seemed to have ordered a bunch of them..oops.
Paul B
Premium Member
I buy worms every week, although some of them do reproduce in my worm keeper, the vast majority are purchased in a store.
I feed them almost every day along with other foods. Most fish get almost 20% of their diet as fats which are oils.
Most fish eat a large portion of their diet as fish and eggs.
melanotaenia
New member
Wow, I cannot believe the backing that black worms are receiving in this thread!! They are so fatty and so bad for fish, and yet so many of hobbyists on here would prefer these to more appropriate seafood mixes that mimic the real diets these fish have in the ocean.
Last I checked I did not see blackworms floating around reefs. I agree they can work well for finicky eaters, but right after that part of the process passes, the blackworms are immediately abandoned, at least for me.
Last I checked I did not see blackworms floating around reefs. I agree they can work well for finicky eaters, but right after that part of the process passes, the blackworms are immediately abandoned, at least for me.
I'd love to know the last time someone lost a butterfly fish in captivity due to obesity or fatty liver. Furthermore, last time I checked, there were no fatty freshwater PE mysis floating around the reef either, yet I think I'd be hard pressed to find someone that doesn't recommend them.
Big E
Premium Member
Peter,
I don't believe mysis, PE or other wise carry the high fat content that worms do. Most of the so called experts okay freshwater mysis because they are of similar nutritional make up of saltwater mysis & other small shrimp, pods, ect.
I think a lot of this is fish specific & should be used accordingly.
I'm not sure what old fish you have Paul, but clownfish & gobies live 15-20 years on any kind of food & they are the most readily spawned fish by novices & hobbyists. They lay eggs when people aren't even trying to breed them. I'm not discounting your success, but the book is still out on the long term affects on most fish available in the marine hobby...............no one knows.
I don't believe mysis, PE or other wise carry the high fat content that worms do. Most of the so called experts okay freshwater mysis because they are of similar nutritional make up of saltwater mysis & other small shrimp, pods, ect.
I think a lot of this is fish specific & should be used accordingly.
I'm not sure what old fish you have Paul, but clownfish & gobies live 15-20 years on any kind of food & they are the most readily spawned fish by novices & hobbyists. They lay eggs when people aren't even trying to breed them. I'm not discounting your success, but the book is still out on the long term affects on most fish available in the marine hobby...............no one knows.
I agree.
As for PE mysis...I don't know...the fat content must be pretty up there, just looking at/feeling them, and the water I thaw them in.
Paul B
Premium Member
Ed this is true about the longivity of clownfish and gobies, my oldest fish was a brutlyd or cusk eel that I killed by accident after 18 years. I also killed my 5 year old moorish Idol by accident. 5 years is no great feat but for a moorish Idol it is almost a record and he was fed blackworms almost every day as is my 17 year old fireclown.
Blackworms are of course a foreign food for a salt water fish but so are clams angel formula and squid. Not many butterflies could open a clam or catch a squid.
Worms have the same or very similar oils in them as fish do.
As I said numerous times a fish is almost 20% oil which is mostly in it's liver. If a fish eats a pound of fish, it is getting about 3 ounces of pure oil.
I even put fish oil on pellets and feed that to my fish and 12 year old hermit crabs and fed it to my 7 year old spawning pair of coral banded shrimp.
It seems hard to believe fish would live so long and be disease resistant eating a diet every day that is so bad for them.
I have been diving since the early 70s and many times watched butterflies pull worms out of rocks. It is their main diet, especialy copperbands and long nosed butterflies.
So if you think worms are bad, don't feed them. I have fish old enough to prove that at least it will not harm them and I have not had or needed a quarantine or hospital tank since the 80s.
I have not been doing this for only 6 months but I have been feeding live worms to fish for fifty years. Saltwater fish for 40 years.
I also feed salmon eggs which are almost all oil.
I know about all the "experts" and met a few of them. None of them have been in this hobby longer than me and I also don't think any of them ever said worms are a bad food. At least I never heard any of them say that.
Have a great day.
Paul
Blackworms are of course a foreign food for a salt water fish but so are clams angel formula and squid. Not many butterflies could open a clam or catch a squid.
Worms have the same or very similar oils in them as fish do.
As I said numerous times a fish is almost 20% oil which is mostly in it's liver. If a fish eats a pound of fish, it is getting about 3 ounces of pure oil.
I even put fish oil on pellets and feed that to my fish and 12 year old hermit crabs and fed it to my 7 year old spawning pair of coral banded shrimp.
It seems hard to believe fish would live so long and be disease resistant eating a diet every day that is so bad for them.
I have been diving since the early 70s and many times watched butterflies pull worms out of rocks. It is their main diet, especialy copperbands and long nosed butterflies.
So if you think worms are bad, don't feed them. I have fish old enough to prove that at least it will not harm them and I have not had or needed a quarantine or hospital tank since the 80s.
I have not been doing this for only 6 months but I have been feeding live worms to fish for fifty years. Saltwater fish for 40 years.
I also feed salmon eggs which are almost all oil.
I know about all the "experts" and met a few of them. None of them have been in this hobby longer than me and I also don't think any of them ever said worms are a bad food. At least I never heard any of them say that.
Have a great day.
Paul
melanotaenia
New member
I see your point. However, the aspect of worms as a long term diet for marine fish does not really make sense if you are in any way trying to mimick the foods these fish normally feed on in nature. Additionally, as pointed out, I am not aware of any studies finding a causal association between black worms, or any worms for that matter, on the temporal health of a fish. But if a study were to be done, it is most likely going to show that those fish fed a diet more consistent with their natural diet in the wild fare better long term as compared to those fed a black worm diet. This would assume all other factors remain consistent for both fish.
My fish love blackworms, it is like drugs to them. That however does not mean we should feed them to our fish. Most humans live french fries. But they are not goof for us
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Most of the fish we keep don't eat the foods we want them to eat like humans eat french fries... it was a nice try, but quit knocking them.
Fish on reefs are thick. Their main goal is to reproduce. Yes you need fats to reproduce. Its all about finding a food the fish will eat to satiation. Blackworms do the trick. Probably one of the best foods to get smaller fish into spawning condition!
Fish on reefs are thick. Their main goal is to reproduce. Yes you need fats to reproduce. Its all about finding a food the fish will eat to satiation. Blackworms do the trick. Probably one of the best foods to get smaller fish into spawning condition!
I see your point. However, the aspect of worms as a long term diet for marine fish does not really make sense if you are in any way trying to mimic the foods these fish normally feed on in nature. Additionally, as pointed out, I am not aware of any studies finding a causal association between black worms, or any worms for that matter, on the temporal health of a fish. But if a study were to be done, it is most likely going to show that those fish fed a diet more consistent with their natural diet in the wild fare better long term as compared to those fed a black worm diet. This would assume all other factors remain consistent for both fish.
My fish love blackworms, it is like drugs to them. That however does not mean we should feed them to our fish. Most humans live french fries. But they are not goof for us
Just so we are clear, you seem to be drifting into areas that frankly I don't disagree with
.I never claimed worms should be "a long term diet". They are just part of a varied, well rounded diet.
I don't think anyone would disagree with "those fish fed a diet more consistent with their natural diet in the wild fare better long term as compared to those fed a black worm diet" But who here actually feeds their fish what they really consume in the wild? I sure don't AFAIK.
Please let's not start comparing fish to sedentary, overweight humans, or the overprocessed foods we eat. It's not an appropriate comparison.
Big E
Premium Member
I never said BW were bad..............go back & read all my comments. As a matter of fact I said it made sense for some species of Butterflies.
What I have issue with is claims of them being some miracle food that makes fish immune to ich, long lived, & good breeders...........it's a bit over the top to make these sweeping generalizations. My 17 year old tang doesn't eat nori, but that doesn't mean I'm going to recommend that people don't feed tangs nori. I'm just putting the facts in perspective.
From Peter,
That's sums it up best at this point.
Didn't someone post some pictures once here of a watchman goby that had fatty liver from too much squid?
Peter I posted a pic of a watchman from Wittenrich's book that had fatty liver because of squid.
Big E as far making fish good breeders, I don't think that is correct, but they are a very good food for getting fish into spawning condition because most any fish will eat them to satiation. If they would gorge as much on other foods as they do on live blackworms, those other foods would do the trick. It all depends on the individual fish and what food they prefer, but LBW are almost universally accepted by any fish small enough to recognize it as food.
As for the ich and long lived, I don't think any food can stop ich. But long lived, hey if blackworms are the only thing they will eat it will definitely increase their lifespan! (Joke )
Big E as far making fish good breeders, I don't think that is correct, but they are a very good food for getting fish into spawning condition because most any fish will eat them to satiation. If they would gorge as much on other foods as they do on live blackworms, those other foods would do the trick. It all depends on the individual fish and what food they prefer, but LBW are almost universally accepted by any fish small enough to recognize it as food.
As for the ich and long lived, I don't think any food can stop ich. But long lived, hey if blackworms are the only thing they will eat it will definitely increase their lifespan! (Joke
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