Live BlackWorms: Best Fish and LPS Food Ever?

[Paul B]

What I have issue with is claims of them being some miracle food that makes fish immune to ich, long lived, & good breeders...........

This has turned into a facinating discussion and I for one love it.

I did not mean that blackworms will make fish immune to ich, I did say that I am surprised that they are immune to ich by eating a food every day for decades that was posted is so bad for them.
My fish are immune to ich, I don't know why. (thats for another discussion) But I also said you should not feed exclusively worms. I only feed a few worms a day along with other more readily available foods like mysis, clam, fish, nori, plankton etc.
I suppliment with worms to insure they get the oil that I feel they need.
Tangs in nature do not eat much worms, they live on algae and whatever tiny animals they happen to pick up with them. I also have kept tangs for many years and they eat worms as well as anything else I fed them. I have swam with tangs for many hours and they constantly scrape algae, thats about all they do.
Clownfish, gobies, and many of the more common fish we keep will eat just about anything that moves but they rarely scrape algae except for gobies that were designed to eat algae.
Fish need to be fed what that particular fish needs to eat.
Lionfish eat almost nothing but whole fish (which are 20% oil) as do trumpetfish, frogfish and anglerfish. Tangs eat algae, copperband and long nose butterflies eat mostly worms, angels eat a variety of algae and fish, mandarins and small pipefish eat pods and anything else tiny enough that moves.
Like I said before, if you think worms are bad, don't use them, the worms will thank you. :lol:

 

[tcmfish]

While we are on the topic of oil... did you know?... fish oil is actually oil from algae, that bioaccumulates in fish from the food they eat.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

A food for thought question (pun intended)- if aquatic animals have oils and fats which are biometabolically usable and OK for marine fish, why DONT we feed goldfish to lionfish? I have never investigated into the claim, but from what I understand, they will cause massive fatty liver deposits. What makes a goldfish liver different from a silverside liver different from a blackworm "oil"?

@Tim- that picture, in and of itself, is one that I will never forget. If overeating squid can can such horrific consequences, then at what point can these enormously fatty worms cause the same?

 

[SDguy]

A food for thought question (pun intended)- if aquatic animals have oils and fats which are biometabolically usable and OK for marine fish, why DONT we feed goldfish to lionfish? I have never investigated into the claim, but from what I understand, they will cause massive fatty liver deposits. What makes a goldfish liver different from a silverside liver different from a blackworm "oil"?

@Tim- that picture, in and of itself, is one that I will never forget. If overeating squid can can such horrific consequences, then at what point can these enormously fatty worms cause the same?

I have heard people criticize silversides as too oily as well. Hopefully someone knowledgeable with feeding these items will chime in.

FWIW, I blame the lazy a** goby, not the squid. :spin3:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I have heard people criticize silversides as too oily as well. Hopefully someone knowledgeable with feeding these items will chime in.

FWIW, I blame the lazy a** goby, not the squid. :spin3:

Perhaps that is true. But......these fish eat fish as a sole part of their diets, and if the blackworms oils and fats are the key to their value, and these things are comparable as per previous comments, then why do we see these problems? Again, just some food for thought.

 

[SDguy]

Perhaps that is true. But......these fish eat fish as a sole part of their diets, and if the blackworms oils and fats are the key to their value, and these things are comparable as per previous comments, then why do we see these problems? Again, just some food for thought.

Pretty sure these issues refer to exclusive diets (goldfish, or krill, or silversides). Again, I have no experience here..only what I have read/heard.

 

[tcmfish]

Not sure on the silversides, but if it were my fish I would much prefer fresh shrimp or fish from the market to silversides, if I had fish big enough to be eating food like that.

Also, on the blackworms/squid, again I'm not sure, but it could be the type of fat they are getting from the food. Omega 3's and 6's and other fatty acids. I don't know the fate of that particular goby, but maybe it was being kept alone? If it couldn't spawn maybe that helped bring on fatty liver.

Just another reason to feed a varied diet.

Also I re-read Matt's book on the section about fatty acids, and blackworms, and he didn't mention anything about blackworms being fatty, the only knock on them he had was that they could carry pathogens because of the environment they come from, but I think his thinking is a little outdated there because most sources of blackworms are now meant for the aquarium trade and people know to rinse them and how to take care of them. Also I know from talking to Matt that he strongly recommends them and that he personally uses them quite often and credits them with getting fish to spawn.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Yes, well, I was mostly referring to PaulB's comments with my "questions". I do respect and value his input, so I wanted to hear his side of it. Essentially, if we are going to say that blackworms have valuable "oils" and fats, which are comparable to the oils and fats in aquatic fish liver or eggs, the we shouldn't see such problems with these fish eating these items. But we are, as demonstrated by that haunting picture, and by the "wives tale" stories of lionfish dying from consuming the fatty goldfish.

@Peter- I do agere, that exclusive diets ARE terrible, for the most part. But, at what point can we say that "too many" blackworms have crossed the line, and are now detrimental? Exclusive diets are problematic because they skew the nutritional intake, and limit others. However, feeding goldfish, silversides, whatever to lionfish isnt reported to cause nutritional deficiencies, is it? I thought is was purported to cause nutritional "overloads", of giant boluses of fats that go straight to the liver, and then kill the fish from there.

@Tim- At this point, we are speculating blindly, no? We have just one references, showing that blackworms have enormous fat content. And we are creating theories and ideas based around that. I dont know if we can suggest that there are omegas. However, if its the 3 and 6, then why not feed salmon, sardines, or flaxseed extract? And, at what point would this become "too much"?

 

[SDguy]

@Peter- I do agree, that exclusive diets ARE terrible, for the most part. But, at what point can we say that "too many" blackworms have crossed the line, and are now detrimental? Exclusive diets are problematic because they skew the nutritional intake, and limit others. However, feeding goldfish, silversides, whatever to lionfish isn't reported to cause nutritional deficiencies, is it? I thought is was purported to cause nutritional "overloads", of giant boluses of fats that go straight to the liver, and then kill the fish from there.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression it was both fat and deficiency (especially something like krill). Too many blackworms crossing the line? Good question. I doubt anyone will have a good answer for that. I think the exact species of fish being considered would be a major factor here (as previously mentioned). I will have to defer to my feeding regiment once more... feeding the "balanced" items like NLS pellets first... with final food items being things like LBW and PE mysis. I think that's the best I can do with the information currently available to us.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression it was both fat and deficiency (especially something like krill). Too many blackworms crossing the line? Good question. I doubt anyone will have a good answer for that. I think the exact species of fish being considered would be a major factor here (as previously mentioned). I will have to defer to my feeding regiment once more... feeding the "balanced" items like NLS pellets first... with final food items being things like LBW and PE mysis. I think that's the best I can do with the information currently available to us.

Interesting. As I said, I am commenting on heresay regarding the "goldfish syndrome", and I have never looked into, nor researched it, as I havent kept a lionfish in over 15 years.

Im just more curious to understand why it can be claimed that blackworms may be the "missing link" diet item, because of the oils and fats, but the fats from these aquatic animals is so detrimental, that current mantra is to not use them at all. Who knows, maybe its rhetorical dogma, or unfounded theories, but maybe its not. Whatever the case may be, if indeed blackworms are good for marine fish because they replicate aquatic livers and associated bioproducts, and these aquatic livers and said bioproducts are considered to eb a detriment, we need to reevaluate blackworms, IMO. Or at the very least, reportray them.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression it was both fat and deficiency (especially something like krill). Too many blackworms crossing the line? Good question. I doubt anyone will have a good answer for that. I think the exact species of fish being considered would be a major factor here (as previously mentioned). I will have to defer to my feeding regiment once more... feeding the "balanced" items like NLS pellets first... with final food items being things like LBW and PE mysis. I think that's the best I can do with the information currently available to us.

Oh, but I agree 1 dillion percent.

 

[Big E]

This has turned into a facinating discussion and I for one love it

Yes, it has been, a lot of interesting points & experiences.

Tangs in nature do not eat much worms, they live on algae and whatever tiny animals they happen to pick up with them. I also have kept tangs for many years and they eat worms as well as anything else I fed them. I have swam with tangs for many hours and they constantly scrape algae, thats about all they do.

It is funny how opportunistic tangs are in aquariums, but their diet seems so narrow in the wild. It kinda reminds me of how for years everyone thought bears only ate berries, honey, insects, fish.................in recent years they found out they can be outright predators for deer, ect.

 

[Paul B]

It has been stated for decades that you should not feed goldfish to saltwater fish, I myself have been saying it and as I am thinking about it, I don't know why I said that. I know I have read it numerous times but I just looked through all my books (and the newest one is 30 years old) and I still can't find it.
In my personal experience with keeping lionfish, moray eels, and angler fish I never lost one that I could think of from feeding goldfish.
As a matter of fact I would usually inject the goldfish (or guppies) with cod liver oil before I fed them. I could have been wasting my time by doing that.

I remember reading somewhere about having different oils in fresh and saltwater fish but as I said, it could be an old wives tale.

I do know that cold saltwater fish have a higher level of Omega 3 oils and that is the reason fish oil is harvested from mostly cod, tuna,and makeral.

omega-3 (n-3) fatty acids
include α-linolenic acid, eicosapentanoic acid, docosahexanoic acid. High concentrations found in cold water marine (fish) oils.

There is so much information about how good fish oil is but none on fresh water fish oil.

I also found out that plant based oils would be Omega 6 oils. I am not a chemist so I can't comment on any of it.

I also can't find out anything on the oils in worms but that is another thing I have read numerous times but I can't remember where (I'm old and can't remember a lot of things )

Most of my opinions about worms I have formulated myself. In my experience of feeding these things to fish for so many years I have only found good results and only have spawning old fish to back up my claims.
I have not lost a fish to any disease in probably 30 years and I do keep quite a few fish, not hundreds but enough.
That is without quarantining or a hospital tank.
My moorish Idol did get Pop eye once which I did have to cure in a day with a hypodermic needle and a little antibiotic but he was fine for a few years after. I also had a puffer that I had to remove a tumor from inside his belly by slicing him open, he lived for 12 years after that so I don't think he counts either.
As for worms, I only use them for oil and I assume they have some vitamins, but again I have no idea. Fish need other things besides oil. Things like calcium which is also lacking in many commercial foods because fish get much of their calcium from fish bones. Fish bones are digested. If a fish eats another fish, we don't see the fish poop out bones.
My burrfish eats crabs, sometimes he eats whole fiddler crabs and I also give him blue claw crab legs which are almost as long as he is. He eats the shell like it's M&Ms and doesn't poop it out. It all gets digested.
Besides worms I also fed my fish fresh clams, clame have some calcium in their flesh (I must have read that somewhere)
I love to feed my fish tiny salt water fish which I collect live in the summer. Those IMO are the best foods because a whole fish would have everything in it in the correct proportions that a fish needs.

Fish oil is not incorporated into commercial foods because it does not last long. That is why it is sold in airtite capsules. It also stinks and stains and is generally disquesting stuff.
It can not go on frozen foods because it seperates from water based foods and would just float. It is not in flakes because as I mentioned, it goes bad.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[jmaneyapanda]

It has been stated for decades that you should not feed goldfish to saltwater fish, I myself have been saying it and as I am thinking about it, I don't know why I said that. I know I have read it numerous times but I just looked through all my books (and the newest one is 30 years old) and I still can't find it.
In my personal experience with keeping lionfish, moray eels, and angler fish I never lost one that I could think of from feeding goldfish.
As a matter of fact I would usually inject the goldfish (or guppies) with cod liver oil before I fed them. I could have been wasting my time by doing that.

I remember reading somewhere about having different oils in fresh and saltwater fish but as I said, it could be an old wives tale.

I do know that cold saltwater fish have a higher level of Omega 3 oils and that is the reason fish oil is harvested from mostly cod, tuna,and makeral.



There is so much information about how good fish oil is but none on fresh water fish oil.

I also found out that plant based oils would be Omega 6 oils. I am not a chemist so I can't comment on any of it.

I also can't find out anything on the oils in worms but that is another thing I have read numerous times but I can't remember where (I'm old and can't remember a lot of things )

Most of my opinions about worms I have formulated myself. In my experience of feeding these things to fish for so many years I have only found good results and only have spawning old fish to back up my claims.
I have not lost a fish to any disease in probably 30 years and I do keep quite a few fish, not hundreds but enough.
That is without quarantining or a hospital tank.
My moorish Idol did get Pop eye once which I did have to cure in a day with a hypodermic needle and a little antibiotic but he was fine for a few years after. I also had a puffer that I had to remove a tumor from inside his belly by slicing him open, he lived for 12 years after that so I don't think he counts either.
As for worms, I only use them for oil and I assume they have some vitamins, but again I have no idea. Fish need other things besides oil. Things like calcium which is also lacking in many commercial foods because fish get much of their calcium from fish bones. Fish bones are digested. If a fish eats another fish, we don't see the fish poop out bones.
My burrfish eats crabs, sometimes he eats whole fiddler crabs and I also give him blue claw crab legs which are almost as long as he is. He eats the shell like it's M&Ms and doesn't poop it out. It all gets digested.
Besides worms I also fed my fish fresh clams, clame have some calcium in their flesh (I must have read that somewhere)
I love to feed my fish tiny salt water fish which I collect live in the summer. Those IMO are the best foods because a whole fish would have everything in it in the correct proportions that a fish needs.

Fish oil is not incorporated into commercial foods because it does not last long. That is why it is sold in airtite capsules. It also stinks and stains and is generally disquesting stuff.
It can not go on frozen foods because it seperates from water based foods and would just float. It is not in flakes because as I mentioned, it goes bad.
Have a great day.
Paul

Very much agreed........but..........how does this all tie back to blackworms? If the important omega oils are found in cold water marine fish, then how does this apply to blackworms? Calcium and other elements are important, and certainly make natural, whole foods important, but how does this apply to blackworms?

These blackworms are, after all, freshwater invertebrates. And thus, far, all that can be shown is that that are ultra fatty foods. Fatty liver deposits are known to be problematic in MANY fish, so I am just curious to see how you can make the connection. Judging off what weve found thus far (in technical form), these worms dont necessarily provide anything but a balanced diet, and would be considered no more "essential" to breeding than spirulina, or aquatic crustaceans, or other worms, or any other diet item. It seems they make a well balanced part of a diet, and have a niche purpose, but what makes them "the key"?

I do understand that you have a LOT of experience, and success. I do not dispute that. And, I gather that you response will be true to what it has been all along this thread, which is "I dont know, its just my experience (casual observations)". I can accept that in that form. However, I, out of principle, do not accept comments stated as fact, "just because someone said it". Despite how much experience that person may have with keeping fish, breeding fish, diving, or otherwise. Yes, I believe your observations. However, I would like to know WHY you attribute this to blackworms alone, particularly when the scientific evidence (if you will), does seem to be leaning that way whatsoever. Again, not trying to be rude, or argumentative, or accusatory AT ALL, but instead respectfully asking your opinion and definitions of your statements.

 

[snorvich]

Part of the problem that I see is incentives. There is little to no incentive to do due diligence in the science associated with a hobby. So for our hobby, we have anecdotal evidence which until proved otherwise is what we do. That, by the way, is one of the underlying values of reef central. If there were accurate books which more than experiential, I am sure we all would be reading them.

 

[Paul B]

Very much agreed........but..........how does this all tie back to blackworms?

We just seemed to figure out that goldfish also have oils and we do not know if goldfish oil is good or bad. Anyway I think we know that worms will not kill our fish. I know they are full of oil. How do I know? I forgot how I know, hows that? I just know.

Calcium and other elements are important, and certainly make natural, whole foods important, but how does this apply to blackworms?

It does not, that is why I said I only feed worms for oil, I feed other things like whole fish and clams for calcium. I assume whole worms would be full of vitamins because they are whole "and alive" Living animals will have vitamins and minerals in them to sustain their own life. Is it the vitamins fish need. I don't know.

These blackworms are, after all, freshwater invertebrates. And thus, far, all that can be shown is that that are ultra fatty foods.

Worms like fish and other cold blooded animals contain no fat, just oils. Fat would not be able to move through a cold blooded animals blood. So they are an ultra oily food not a fatty food.

Fatty liver deposits are known to be problematic in MANY fish,

Not in any of my fish and they are fed worms every day. I studied them longer than any food on the market. If worms were bad, my fish would not be spawning and would be dead. I know that is not a scientific study but it's all I got.

It seems they make a well balanced part of a diet, and have a niche purpose, but what makes them "the key"?

I never said they were the key, I said they supply oil that fish in the sea get by eating other fish. I also said that fish oil is not supplied by commercial means because it goes bad and it stinks. If we could feed whole fish, we would never have to feed anything else. Everything a fish needs is in a fish but they don't sell tiny, fresh whole fish so I feed worms for oil, clams for calcium and kelp, plankton, mysis etc for other nutrients.
There is no one key that we could easily buy.

I do understand that you have a LOT of experience, and success.

I'm old :bum:

And, I gather that you response will be true to what it has been all along this thread, which is "I dont know,

You would be amazed at the vast amount of things I don't know.
But I do know that if I feed a certain food to a fish for 18 years and it is still living and spawning, it can't be too bad.

I, out of principle, do not accept comments stated as fact,

Nor do I, thats why I do my own research. I also use a reverse UG filter. 99% of people say that will not work. I have the oldest tank on here so I don't know what to say about that except that is my experience.

I would like to know WHY you attribute this to blackworms alone, particularly when the scientific evidence (if you will), does seem to be leaning that way whatsoever.

Do you know of a scientist that has been feeding fish with blackworms for 50 years. Most scientific studies last a few months, then another scientific study will last a few more months and refute the first scientists data.
I have no proof that I can offer that proves worms are good or no good. Maybe it's my UG filter that keeps the fish healthy. :reading:

And again, I don't atribute it to blackworms "alone"

Again, not trying to be rude, or argumentative, or accusatory AT ALL,

On the contrary, I never thought that :wave:

 

[Stuart60611]

For what it is worth, the key to all this may be the particular kind of fat in a given food. Yes, blackworms are high in fat. But as someone stated above, certain kinds of fat are good for humans and other kinds of fat are not. This could also be true for fish. Goldfish may be high in the kind of fat that is not healthy for marine fish. Blackworms could be high in the kind of fat that is very healthy for marine fish. Unfortuantely, we do not know.

 

[Paul B]

we do not know

It would seem that we don't know much of anything.

 

[SDguy]

Part of the problem that I see is incentives. There is little to no incentive to do due diligence in the science associated with a hobby. So for our hobby, we have anecdotal evidence which until proved otherwise is what we do. That, by the way, is one of the underlying values of reef central. If there were accurate books which more than experiential, I am sure we all would be reading them.

Unfortunately, I don't think these topics fare much better outside of the "hobby" arena. Billions of dollars go into studies for humans, and we still hear different opinions every other month regarding caffeine, alcohol, carbohydrate, and fat/protein intake for people... I think we're stuck with RC anecdotal threads for our fish foods

 

[Paul B]

I think we're stuck with RC anecdotal threads for our fish foods

You mean like "I fed my moorish Idol Plaster of Paris with seaweed, vitamins and oil mixed in?

I really did, but it is still anecdotal.