Low PH and high KH at a loss

Rudimenta

Member
Ok ill try to formulate this as best i can:

My PH hovers between 7.65 and 7.8 (day night swing)

I have tried (i think) everything i read on this forum except for a CO2 scrubber, which i can not obtain the components for here in Vietnam.

First of all to avoid the obvious replies i am expecting.
-I have read randys article about a zillion times.
-I have connected an outside air supply to my skimmer.
-I did water changes, too many to count to try to get it back to a little better range.
-Doors and windows are open during the day always, i live in Vietnam and the temperature is basically always 30degrees so we leave the doors and windows open because running ac's 24/7 is just too expensive anyway. I do live in the suburbs so air quality is not bad.
-Kalkwasser dosing i have done but its really bandage it only helps for a few hours.
-I have a RODI machine with a TDS meter its zero. TDS pen also zero
-for water aeration have have even installed an extra powerhead
-I did the test taking a cup of water and putting it outside it increased by 0.02 with a PH pen.
-I have a ph pen, an apex labgrade and a seneye electronic testers plus with a color test (not that its useful to get a precise reading) They all basically are giving the same result.
-I have tried using another salt seachem reef iso red sea pro. Both are mixing a little higher around 8. So water changes do help a little bit at a time but it never gets to the ideal 8.1 to 8.3 range


Tank stats:
ALK 10.7 (recent test but it swings between 10-12)
Calc 450-475
Mag 1350
NH3-4 0
NO2 0
NO3 20 (i know high, was hoping this is the cause)
PO4 0.07
SALT 35 avg
Temp 26 (0.5 swing on the chiller)

Tank is about 50gallons/180ltr it is hooded, but i have left the hood open for a day and that increases also the ph by 0.02 which is not much, i did install 4! fans in the hood. I run seachem matrix and denitrate in different media filters and in socks i run phosguard and a carbon both at suggested amounts and i change them frequently.

For test kits i have hanna digitals and i double check with sera marine (dkh/cal/po4). Balance of my test kits are are sera marine because its the easiest to get in Vietnam.

I stopped Kalk 3 days ago, as i dont see any benefits and started a vodka program to do something about the nitrates. I did dose kalk for about 4 weeks and just gave up. Before i kept my mg and calc under control with Red Sea abc plus, which worked fine. During the kalk program i used seachem mg to keep the mg in check.

The tank has 1 small lemon tang, two wrasse (both small), 1 big clown one small clown. Some SPS and LPS, which where doing fine before the ph problem. I would say coral wise its medium stocked at best.

Any ideas would be welcome.
 
Here is a tank shot before the ph issue which started about a month ago, after this sps has browned and the elegance for example have closed up. This all happened during the ph downfall/kalkdosing/nitrate rise, I am not sure how much they are related.

ImageUploadedByTapatalkHD1385975202.911457.jpg

But it gives an idea of the tank.
 
I am betting you are in a close up apartment or house? Also I am betting the coral's are upset over the nitrates.
 
The nitrate level is not high enough to cause a pH problem. Are you using a calcium reactor? You might try dosing a two part of calcium and Sodium carbonate. Carbonates will raise pH much better than bicarbonates. You can also try a light reversed refugium with chaetomorpha. The chaeto will absorb the CO2 at night and help remove the nitrates.
 
have you tested your salt water source or mix? never experienced such a thing have you tried dripping kalsswalker I think it is? you may need to up water changes though otherwise youll have calcium precipitation just a thought though this has me stumped
 
(My guess) is lack of O2 Absorption hence why a CO2 Scrubber would work. I had to do this on my take the easiest way to tell is to leave a window open for a few hours next to the take if the PH improves that is what it is. If that is what it is and you cannot get the CO2 scrubbing media simply run an air line outside from your skimmer with carbon filtering the inlet so that you get good clean fresh air into the system.
 
quote: I am betting you are in a close up apartment or house? Also I am betting the coral's are upset over the nitrates.
quote 2: have you tested your salt water source or mix? never experienced such a thing have you tried dripping kalsswalker I think it is? you may need to up water changes though otherwise youll have calcium precipitation just a thought though this has me stumped
quote 3: (My guess) is lack of O2 Absorption hence why a CO2 Scrubber would work. I had to do this on my take the easiest way to tell is to leave a window open for a few hours next to the take if the PH improves that is what it is. If that is what it is and you cannot get the CO2 scrubbing media simply run an air line outside from your skimmer with carbon filtering the inlet so that you get good clean fresh air into the system.

Uh yes all mentioned in my initial post. Guess nobody read that part! No calc reactor

I do agree that the high nitrates must be causing the coral distress
 
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yes with 4 fans as mentioned. leaving the lid open for several hours increases the PH by 0.02... as mentioned
 
as for the CO2 Scrubber, i have looked and looked but i cant get sodalime in Vietnam, anything else you can use?

Since i dont think i have a co2 issue, explained several times above i dont know if it will work anyway.

Update: after 4 days of Vodka, the corals are improving, nitrate is dropping slowly.

PH swing is 7.55-7.65 on the Apex (sump), 7.68 to 7.75 Seneye (display), test kit between 7.5 and 8, PH pen 7.7 this is a cheap Chinese one.
 
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If the alkalinity is really 10 dKH and the pH didn't rise when aerated for three hours outside, then your measurement equipment most likely is not working. Well, I'm assuming the SG is reasonable and the salt mix was tolerable. Did you use the same calibration buffers for all the meters?

If you can find borax, 1/2 tsp of borax added to one quart of RO/DI water yields a solution with a pH of about 9.2. That'd make a decent sanity test for the pH measurement.
 
If the alkalinity is really 10 dKH and the pH didn't rise when aerated for three hours outside, then your measurement equipment most likely is not working. Well, I'm assuming the SG is reasonable and the salt mix was tolerable. Did you use the same calibration buffers for all the meters?

If you can find borax, 1/2 tsp of borax added to one quart of RO/DI water yields a solution with a pH of about 9.2. That'd make a decent sanity test for the pH measurement.

dKH today is 11.2, so yes.

Calibration of apex 7-10 sol, seneye uses pads, ph pen is different solution which I guess is 7. Since I basically get 4 times the same results it's practically impossible.

SG is stable at 35.. It swings by temp of course, I did double check manually

Ph does rise when when I put it outside but just marginally...

Fresh mix of salt mixes at about 8, but my many water changes before had a very negative effect on my tank.

The only thing I can think of is that I added young mangrove plants to my tank around the same time I started having ph issues. Just a recent thought..
 
Mangrove plants shouldn't have much effect on the pH, even if it did, it should increase the pH and not reduce it.

I used Seachem reef buffer only to maintain my Alk and pH. I'm not sure if you can find this product in Vietnam.
 
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ok, as i said i am at a loss. Thanks for that confirmation.

So what besides CO2 can have a negative effect on the PH. I just reread the Randy article, he gives several possible causes, which i have basically ruled out except for the cycle issue.

It is still a young tank 4 months running after cycle, could it be a "second" cycle? I did not have any ammonia spike or no2 spike. Ammonia is constantly tested via the Seneye and no2 i test about 1 time a week, because it always reads zero. But i may have triggered something by the water changes and nitrate spike. My original cycle was about a month, it had a big ammonia and no2 spike.
 
I did use Seachem reef buffer before the kalk dripping, it did raise the PH (temporairy) however my calcium/dkh went through the roof, 550+ on several test and i had a dkh of 14-15 at same time testing, so switch to Kalk at that time.
 
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That is a tough one. It looks like you have tried the common remedies, and need something drastic. Is your air intake next to the street? You might be sucking vehicle exhaust (high in CO2) into the skimmer and that will keep the pH down. Is there any new construction in the area that started about the same time as the pH drop? Or a new neighbor as said time?

Not sure if anyone mentioned a reverse light cycle on the mangroves in the sump to even out the pH swings. 7.8 is a little low but not unheard of in a reef tank.
 
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