Macro Algae and P/NO3

[Mr31415]

In a well established reef aquarium - such as some of the TOTM tanks out there, am I right in saying if all herbivores would be removed from those tanks the macro algae would start growing quickly?

That one can never export enough nutrients (P, NO3 and whatever else algae uses to grow) so that their growth is stunted by it?

My test kits (D-Deltec Merck Phosphate and tropic Marine NO3) shows I have <= 0.008 mg/L P and 0 NO3 in my reef aquarium. I am running GAC, RowaPhos, Chaeto on reverse photo period, Deltec AP600 skimmer, uses RO water and currently have a light stocking level of fish (about 7 fish) - aquarium is 145g.

My bryopsis and pink hair algae is growing very quickly as nothing in my tank eats them. So my question is - even though the readings for P and NO3 is very, very low is it possible to further reduce the nutrients so that the algae cannot grow or will that never happen and one will have to find alternative means of killing the algae off?

 

[Boomer]

Mr

1. Yes, it may, unless the corals can out compete them for nutrients.

2. Yes, usually

3. You have been misled by the Merick kit. I brought this up awhile back and now Merick is being less misleading.

When we talk about Phosphate we mean it as PO4, and P in not PO4 but PO4-P. This means that the given is only for P and leaves out the O4. This gives a misleading value. We recommend PO4 to be 0.03 ppm PO4, which equals 95 /31 conversion = 3.06 so .008 x 3 = .0245 PO4

1 ppm P = 3 .06 ppm PO4-P or P

With that said you still have very low PO4

4. It is a myth to a degree. Even though low or zero P is a good idea to keep algae down, even zero levies can still grow algae. These are all water column levels and says nothing about the ability of algae or even other forms of marine life to suck the PO4 out of the water as fast as it is released where it can not be measured, not to mention the ability of many algae to suck PO4 out of the sand bed. Finally, some algaes, especially Blue-green/ cyanobacteria can convert organic P into PO4. You kit can not measure Organic P. Don't forget those corals also need and are using P. Excessive algae usually is associated with high P .

Some things to read

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm

 

[Mr31415]

Thanks for the response, Boomer. So to summarise then - what can I do to stop my Bryopsis and pink hair algae from growing? It is slowly spreading to adjacent rocks and I tried TWallace's method of using high Mg levels - I think it messed up more things than not, and it did not work. I really do not want to start all over with new LR, but I cannot do more than keep P undetectable and so too NO3 - so what options are left for me?

 

[Boomer]

Mr.

Yah the high Mg++ is not a guarantee it works for some. How high was it ? Sometimes these algaes can be a real pain to get rid of.

There is not to much more you can do except to try and weed them out. What some do is pull out the LR and just scrub down with a brush and put it back in. Rabbitfish or a Foxface love eating Bryopsis. There is also the Lettuce Nudibranch Tridachia crispata. Some tangs also eat Bryopsis. The best post ever on Bryopsis

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=167632

Do you have a pic of the pink stuff so I can ID it. A good pic now, nice and sharp and clear

 

[Mr31415]

Mg was 1600, but I used Tropic Marine's BioMagnesium. It did kill the pink stuff though - but it started growing back as the Mg levels fell to normal.

I can do you one better regarding a picture - I placed the pink stuff under my microscope

Bryopsis:

Microscope of Bryopsis:

Pink stuff:

Microscope view of pink stuff:

 

[bertoni]

The pink macroalga can be beaten with a refugium and some hand-pruning, in my experience, although some feeding changes might also be required. The Bryopsis is not a macroalga that I have encountered in my tanks, but the same approach might work.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Trying to limit these algae (as well as many other reef algae) through nutrient limitation often doesn't work well since these guys often aren't nutrient limited even at vanishingly small nutrient concentrations typical of reef water. I'd concentrate on herbivory (counting yourself with some tweezers/brush as an herbivore).

cj

 

[Boomer]

WOW Mr :thumbsup:

Not that is what I call listening to the question and then still thinking' outside the box

The pink stuff no doubt is the Falkenbergia Stage / Sporophyte Stage" of Asparagopsis taxiformis The byro is Bryopsis pennata


Asparagopsis taxiformis
https://www.marineland.com/seascope/ss2003_issue3.pdf

 

[MCsaxmaster]

Ha, if this is thinking outside the box, then I'm probably far, far outside said box

 

[Boomer]

Are you sure

 

[Mr31415]

Thanks for the ID, Boomer. I have some other pics (full res is much higher but I live in SA so bandwidth is always an issue) of algae here, scroll to the bottom:

http://reef.gamma.za.net/home/145g_reef_tank/145g_livestock_other.dot

 

[Boomer]

Scroll to the bottom, no, I want to ID the the other un'id stuff first

Blue worm is a Syllid worm

1st un'ID = Another isopod

2nd. Boy that thing I would say it looks like a very small glass sponge. And I have never heard of one that small

3rd. Need bigger pic but looks like a Tree Foram for sure.

4th. Working on it. But does anything stick its had out of that tube. It must be a worm

5th. Need better pic but looks like a Orange Ball Anemone
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/invert.htm


6th. Same but looks like a sponge

7th. Working on it and may not be able to ID

8th. Looks like Rhodymenia

http://images.google.com/images?q=Rhodymenia+&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20

 

[Mr31415]

Wow - that is all I can say. I never expected this surprise. Thanks for taking the time and effort to help me out.

I have never seen anything come out that tube (4td unidentified one), but then again that tube is long gone.

Here are the full sized pictures you asked for:

 

[Boomer]

I have no doubt now of these lat three pics are as I said.

1. Tree Foraminifera ( Foram for short)


2. Pseudocorynactis, Oranbe Ball Anemone. But really is not an anemone but a Corallimorph.

3. Small "barrel" sponge. We will never be able to ID this to species.

I'm also having second thoughst on the blue worm it my not be a Syllid but a Hesionid.

I'm going to have Les come here for a look at the blue worm and bamboo looking tube thing. Also the leather coral creature.

I never expected this surprise. Thanks for taking the time and effort to help me out.

I make peoples heads hurt here on chem forum but on 4 other forums I do mostly ID's ID's don't hurt anyones head, where chem does, mine also at times.

 

[Mr31415]

Well thank you for the update. So now you have got yourself become my personal chemistry and bug guy

 

[LeslieH]

Reporting for duty as requested but you may be sorry you asked!

The blue worm is a syllid epitoke; the posterior section of a normal worm which is modified as a pelagic delivery system for gametes. It breaks away from the parent, swims to the surface, & scatters the eggs or sperm. In this case it's eggs.

I wouldn't go past "sponge" on any of the sponge pics. What Boomer's calling a leather coral creature & Mr31415 called a ?glass sponge could certainly be a developing sponge.

The "serpulid" is a spirorbid polychaete. They're distinguished from the serpulids by their relatively tiny size & the fact they're always in tight spirals.

After the mysid pic is something labelled as isopod. That pic's not completely clear but it appears to be a marine mite, an acarid.

Rhodymenia species are flat. I'm not sure from the pic but it looks as if the algae is soft and rounded? Then it's most likely to be something like Sebdenia flabellata which is in another order, Halymeniales. Rhodymenia is order Rhodymeniales.

The pink hair algae: The cell pattern & branching isn't right for Falkenbergia according to my books. I would just leave it as a probable Ceramiale. Unless of course some typical Asparagopsis starts popping up in your tank.....

Okay, the weird segmented thing, hmmm. Not worm. My first thought was someone glued a brittlestar or feather star arm segment to the rock. Other possibilities are cnidarian or articulated coralline algae. Mr., would you please post a high res of it? Go ahead & save yourself bandwidth by cropping down to just the structure. Thanks--

 

[Boomer]

At least you followed orders

Nope still glad you came. At least my first guess on the Syllid was correct.

marine mite, an acarid.

Crap, never even entered my mind. I told him that

The "serpulid" is a spirorbid polychaete.

How did I miss that mis-ID

Rhodymenia species

Yah I figured WRONG. I should have gone with my first thought be it right or wrong. Sebdenia flabellata or what do you think
Scarcodiotheca caribaea was what I was going to tell him it was, as it looks more like it than anything. Littler p98. I don't know why I changed my mind. To much over thinkin'' I guess


The cell pattern & branching isn't right for Falkenbergia according to my books

Really It does not look like the one in Littler pg 69, Fig 1 in Caribbean Reef Plants ( the big one) . He has a B & W line drawing of the cell pattern. To me looks almost like his pic's. So does Lit's color pic

Okay, the weird segmented thing, hmmm

We are stumped again.
Crinoid arm now that is a good one Actually many years ago on RAMAR we had a troll do stuff like that.

What did you ever hear about our little move

 

[LeslieH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10412071#post10412071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer

Sebdenia flabellata or what do you think.....Scarcodiotheca caribaea Littler p98.

The cell pattern & branching isn't right for Falkenbergia according to my books
Really It does not look like the one in Littler pg 69, Fig 1 in Caribbean Reef Plants ( the big one) . He has a B & W line drawing of the cell pattern. To me looks almost like his pic's. So does Lit's color pic

I totally agree - too much thinking can really screw a person up.

I didn't mean to imply that the plant is actually Sebdenia flabellata, just that what Mr31415 has appears to be a soft species similar to a Sebdenia, a Sarcodiotheca, a Halymedia, or something like that. I'd also prefer a species that shows up in the Pacific as opposed to a caribbean one! :lol:

Falkenbergia -- The color pic in Littler & Littler does match but then so would pics of many other filamentous reds. Check the line drawing & description again. The ends of the individual cells are typically pointed and each group of 3 cells is offset about 60 degrees from it's neighbors. In Mr31415's pic the cell ends are flat and the cell groups are not offset.

 

[Boomer]

Ok I'll buy the pointy thing/offset and I did notice that. BUT that may or could be just the drawing. Nothing else in any of Lit's books are even close to this cell structure accept the Falkenbergia .

I didn't mean to imply that the plant is actually Sebdenia flabellata

No I agree you were not implying. I had issues calling it a Rhodymenia. I should have learned from all this years ago to be more apt to say "You can not ID that from the photo"

Hey, on another note Terry wants you to write for him I sent you a PM awhile back but "box is full". Advancedaquarist

 

[Boomer]

OK Les I have it ID :lol: