Mandarin Breeding Attempt

kizanne

kizanne

Member
Back story: I used to have a saltwater tank really loved it things of all sorts were going well. I went on vacation it crashed.

I decided to restart with one main purpose, to breed mandarins. I set off on my quest with no breeding experience. Some different tank ideas (no different then my ideas long ago, but different than the standard. I had the internet to read, I bought a few books including wittenriches breeders guide. I also had the advantage of a little more money than back then. (The money didn't seem to last long).

I setup my tank with my mandarins in mind but threw in some other stuff to make it more interesting. I located a pair of bonded mandarins (11/4/2014) at BlueZoo and set off for a long wait and started preparations like variety of micro algae, rotifers, brine shrimp eggs, variety of copepods, macro algae, spare tank for larva.

The wait wasn't near as long as I expected. My girl was gravid 2 nights ago and there was ascending/mating dance. There was not spawn. So here I wait tonight hoping for spawn. Lights out 9:10. Mandarins together on the rocks near where the ascending too place before. Also near where they sleep.
 
Well they went to bed without anything other than swimming side by side on a rock. Very disappointing since they ascended multiple times before on Wednesay.
 
Can you give us any more details like feeding, tank size, etc? This sounds like an amazing project, and I wish you good luck!
 
the display tank is 125 gallon with a 40 refugium. It has live rock, macro algae, was stocked with amphipods and copepods which you can still visibly see.

I got my pair, put them in a breeders net and fed live amphipods (which would hid in the cracks on them) and live brine. I tried feeding frozen everyday, trying mysid, cod eggs, bloodworms, frozen brine, frozen rotifers, pellets, flake food. After they were eating some frozen put them in the tank. They didn't eat frozen then they hunted copepods all day. My display tank got flukes, I dosed prazipro both bath and gut loaded live brine but not sure how much they ate of the live brine the male really stinks as a hunter. The live brine was also gut loaded with selco and garlic. The girl got fat on Wednesay, I thought there is no way she is gravid. Grabbed some photos, posted them in the Is she gravid thread (see below). That night they did some ascending runs but did not spawn. The boy still looks a little skinny (which he got when we had flukes and I didn't know it). He seems to be putting the weight back on (I hope). But he is now back to eating the frozen brine.

I figure I have multiple steps to achieve and overcome.

1. Find a female (they can actually be hard) check
2. Make a pair (bought them as a pair) check
3. Get them in the tank with them eating well enough for her to make eggs. check
4. Get them to spawn
5. Be there when it happens and catch the eggs
6. Incubate the eggs til they hatch (82 degrees in parental tank water is the plan)
7. have the right and enough larva food when they first start eating.
8. graduate to rotifers, copepod, baby brine
9. Keep the density down so I can keep the water quality up.

Here's a link to the gravid pics.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2468583
 
I know that there are prawn eggs for sale...sometime in the future, but in the meantime, if you haven't already, check out Paul B's BBS feeder. It looks like a very good way to feed your male and female. I think he also said that they'll eat worms that reach the bottom of the tank that are still alive (white/grindal/black worms). Umm...Wittenrich has a few very detail-less articles on the microcosm site, but those might help as well. Finally, there's MOFIB. I think that that's all that I can help you for now since I'm just about to start work on some wild caught Banggai's come spring....
 
Yea I'm working on a feeder. so far I'm having trouble getting my net and my shrimp to work. I have some baby brine but I also have some teenage brine too that I can gut load and don't have to hatch everyday. My brine either comes out too fast or not at all. My Cardinals have figured the feeder out, my mandarins have not. I'm also working on a 'feeding station' the glass jar with food. They will eat as long as I get it in the right area and over feed the tank. They also right now will only eat the frozen brine, I'm still throwing the other foods at them randomly.

I have read so much about breeding. I've read Wittenrich, Pederson, a girl can't remember the name. I'm registered over at MBI which has some journals. I have several pieces of info and a plan. Unfortunately nobody has actually just said what they have done.

This is what I have pieced together so far.

1. Spawn happen when the female is gravid and about 1-2 hours after lights out(in most cases). If she is well fed she will spawn. My ascending activity was at about 11:15 pm same day that I noticed her gravid (or thought she was at the time). I still don't have spawn, I don't think the male is conditioned enough yet.

2. Eggs can be hatched in either a jar of parental water at 82 degrees or in a brine hatcher set up. I plan on starting with a 1/2 gallon jar inside of a 10 gallon tank heated to 80-82 degrees. If this doesn't yield the results I want I'll try the brine shrimp hatcher.

3. Eggs hatch 12-18 hours after spawn depending on temperature. Larva at this time can not feed.

4. Larva starvation is between 4 and 5 days

5. Larva need really small food and rotifers alone are probably not enough. Larva may eat a motile algae like T-Iso. I plan on culturing many algae, rotifers, copepods, ciliates, other infusoria. I want some ss strain rotifers.

Right now I have
Large cultures of
nannochloropsis
L-strain rots

Have medium amount but struggling
T-Iso

Recieved Test tube sample of and am working on culturing
Tetraselmis, Dunaliella salina,Thalassiosira, Chaetoceros gracilis

Have but the 'culture isn't working (but have the in tank and places to isolate and keep trying).
Calanoid copepod
hartecoid copepod

Have but working on isolating
ciliate
other infusoria (found plenty but having trouble IDing some of it (all of it))

Depending on when my fist spawn is will dictate what I try first. I don't expect to succeed at first (maybe never) but I intend to give it a good try. I find that I have to be more careful with my culturing as I'm getting rots into everything.
 
Be sure the female is way smaller than the male. The male should be huge compared to her, or she will drive him off and worse case scenerio she'll kill him.
 
I pretty sure they are already a pair. They tried ascending Wednesday. I believe he just isn't in condition right now to spawn. He is thin. I'm treating for flukes right now and I'll be trying to get him to take some metro internally this week after my live brine come in.

She went to the area they have been meeting up last night but he went to bed. I think I'll need 2-3 weeks to condition him before anything is going to happen.
 
yeah, kiz, this is interesting.. i'm very interested in your phyto cultures...where did you get your halassiosira and chaetoceros starters from? i gotta get some.
is there any way you get any scope pix of your ciliates? i'm still without one and i'm still guessing as to what i've got...hope i haven't wasted all this time on something useless.
i've found that culturing L strain on straight phyto makes for a smaller roti. my yeast fed rotis are large enough for my s. nemotodes to pluck out of the water. they get fat.
my calenoids crashed. i think your mands should love them. my next attempt at calenoids will involve larger surface area and more nanno. i find harpies are very easy if you're using b.s. eggs. innoculate your b.s. cultures with harpies. they feed off of the bacteria that eat the empty cyst husks. mine have infested everything. if you need some starters, i've got lots... and then some.
i'm really hoping you've got a microscope. i need a scope buddy.
 
gogo7 said:
yeah, kiz, this is interesting.. i'm very interested in your phyto cultures...where did you get your halassiosira and chaetoceros starters from? i gotta get some.
is there any way you get any scope pix of your ciliates? i'm still without one and i'm still guessing as to what i've got...hope i haven't wasted all this time on something useless.
i've found that culturing L strain on straight phyto makes for a smaller roti. my yeast fed rotis are large enough for my s. nemotodes to pluck out of the water. they get fat.
my calenoids crashed. i think your mands should love them. my next attempt at calenoids will involve larger surface area and more nanno. i find harpies are very easy if you're using b.s. eggs. innoculate your b.s. cultures with harpies. they feed off of the bacteria that eat the empty cyst husks. mine have infested everything. if you need some starters, i've got lots... and then some.
i'm really hoping you've got a microscope. i need a scope buddy.
Click to expand...

I got my cultures from Carolina Biological supply. They were only $8 but the shipping is killer and it is a small tube. Considering I'm accidently getting rotifers everywhere I'm nervous about contamination of these small cultures.

I have calenoids and harptecoids that I put in my tank but isolating them has been too tedious, so I broke down and order some more. I ordered Tangerine (large), tisbe (small harptecoid), parvo ( small pelagic). I'd love starters of anything I don't have. I can send you (if the postal service to canada will let me) once they are established.

The ciliate is from some refuse so I have no idea what kind it is. I am working on IDing some of my little creatures. I have one that worries me. I have to set up 4 adult brine tanks tonight (have an order coming in) for gut loading more prazi. If I get some good pictures I'll post them and see what people think. I am having trouble even getting in the right phylum for some of these things. Also they sent the wrong microscope (I ordered one with fine control) so until I get the one with fine control it is hard to get the higher magnifications.



Paul I love your mandarin feeder. Your thread is where I got the idea/build from in the first place. I have a few problems (kinks to work out).
1. I'm lazy - so I was trying to make a feeder that could do 2-10 day old shrimp so I don't have to hatch everyday. I'm having trouble getting the netting the right size.

2. My cardinals have found it and eat all the shrimp.
3. When my tangs find I'll really be in trouble.

I am working on (though side tracked with flukes/isolation/prazipro/gut loading). Finding a net the right size/ making a "cave" of some sort that keep the cardinals and tang out. I'm sure it won't keep the 6-line out and maybe not the peppermint shrimp. The hermits found the feeding station too.

I also thought of a slight different jar feeder that with the bright light the shrimp swim up but the open in would be on the side to help hold them in.

But I absolutely love these.


General UPDATE girl goes to the 'right' spot and male is going to bed. Tonight if all goes well I'll be catching them and putting them in a breeders net or a 10 gallon to make sure they eat their gut loaded shrimp as I think they have internal parasites. I'll first be dosing 5 days prazipro/metro then I'm considering paracide x as a followup. The medicine water for the gut loading shrimp will also have selco/garlic/brine shrimp feed. I'm using the dosage they use for seahorses. 2.5 ml per liter

This will also help condition the boy so that when they get out of their medicine treatment they can go back to trying to spawn. My girl is still really big bellied and each night heads to their spot.
 
Yes. Thanks for reminding me. I got my 250 micron and 1000 micron from them. The 10 is just expensive but it is expensive everywhere. My hubby actually already ordered me some bags he found with a variety of weird sizes but I'm still waiting from them to come in. If I don't like them I'll definitely order from them.
 
I have been using cheap nylon stockings for the mesh, just don't stretch it or the holes will be to large
 
kizanne said:
Yes. Thanks for reminding me. I got my 250 micron and 1000 micron from them. The 10 is just expensive but it is expensive everywhere. My hubby actually already ordered me some bags he found with a variety of weird sizes but I'm still waiting from them to come in. If I don't like them I'll definitely order from them.
Click to expand...

smallparts.com (bought by Amazon) is an excellent place for small amounts of nylon mesh.
 
Update: Still in the middle of prazipro treatment but girl is even fatter the standard swallowed a marble. The boy has put on some weight but his rib line is still visible but not sunken anymore.

Tonight they decided to resume ascending runs. With stops to eat the peppermint shrimp larvae released tonight.

Here are a few picture of the ascending runs.





 
Sigh. 1 1/2 hours of ascending all over the tank but nothing. On the upside someone local may give me some seahorse babies to try. Of course I don't have enough copepods yet so that would have to be mostly BBS.
 
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