Manifold off of drain line.. what do you guys think?

[mrx66699]

I dont consider that out running the pump just because you have air going down your drain, most systems perform like that out of the box anyways. If your running a herbie style return and dont want air coming in then i guess. But if your running a standard stand pipe or durso you wouldnt be "outrunning" the pump, sucking in air just goes with the territory in regards to that.

John you may want to rethink the answer to both of your responses as your second one clearly shows you may not have a true understanding of what is mechanically happening with your engineering which then doesn't affirm your first statement too well. Just saying that air going down a drain should preform like this out of the box and it just comes with the territory is just poor planing on the applicants part. You were at my house where the sound of the drains which are flowing over 7000gph is dead silent and without the need for any special muffler sound or any other kind of pipe overflow systems except pure understanding of what is happening. The air being sucked down the drain is the product of the drain pipes out producing the incoming water production. Now yes this is what one would want as you can then run any desired amounts of flow into the system within the limits of said setup, but this end result is desired without the sound being produced of the sucking air. And that is easily attainable by taking the air out and matching the incoming production to the exportation. When you do this you have a perfect harmony of silence with 100% full use of your incoming pumps. Never dial pumps back to match drains thats just inefficient plumbing and use of available resources.....

I dont consider that out running the pump just because you have air going down your drain

Think of it like this there are only two things that can happen with a box that has a drain pipe in it and a pump putting water into the box.

1. The pump will put more water in the box than it can hold at any one time. (pump out producing the drains)
2. The drain pipe will export more water than the pump can produce to fill the box. (drain out producing the pump)

Easily deductible by the outcome in the situation being discussed ...air being sucked into the pipe (2)......water overflowing the box (1)

Consider it or call it what you want but this is what is happening.

 

[nstiesi]

Just because you have air in your drains doesn't mean the drain is out producing your pump. If that were true than eventually the overflow box would empty. At equilibrium (constant water level in box), rate in equals rate out, that's conservation of mass.

If you have air in the lines it simply means you have more capacity for flow before the incoming rate exceeds outgoing, and the box overflows.

 

[nstiesi]

And for what it is worth, I would either put the manifold on the pressure side of the pump, or get one big 2nd pump to run the manifold.

Putting it on the drain means you have less ability to adjust the manifold flow without changing your DT turnover rate. Also makes it harder to tune your overflow. I would treat the systems separately.

 

[mrx66699]

Hard to believe how many people want to give advice on something they are not doing or ever have ....come by anytime and make a documentary lol ...I have full control of any one of a number of devices .....again more mis information glad you know what I have control of lol

 

[mrx66699]

Just because you have air in your drains doesn't mean the drain is out producing your pump

Lol not true why do you think the air is there and its sucking for more ....the pump can't fill it without using some kind if valve to back pressure it ....if the drain was out produced by the pump the system would overflow......just pose yourself this question and ask yourself which one is more productive the drain or the pump ...pump has no more to give and the drain could take more....study the beananimal setup sometime you have to back pressure the drain with a gate valve or it will keep filling and draining filling and draining when the full siphon kicks in

 

[blackthunda77]

The initial question or comment by mark was not "how to run a proper herbie or beananimal set up". If you are running those set ups then yes, you would want to obviously want to match your pump output to your drain to attain a full siphon. Why else would you run those set ups? Noone is asking which setup is more productive or more quiet. What im saying is that just because you are running a standard stand pipe or durso, those are not run at a full siphon so you will inevitable bring in air into the drain and that does not mean the pump is being over drained. The drain is only draining as much as the pump is pumping, its simple physics, lol. And just to bring you in on a secret, i actually am running a herbie overflow system so i do have a bit of knowledge about what im saying, just so we claer that up a bit for you.

in any event, sorry for derailing your thread

 

[blackthunda77]

Just because you have air in your drains doesn't mean the drain is out producing your pump. If that were true than eventually the overflow box would empty. At equilibrium (constant water level in box), rate in equals rate out, that's conservation of mass.

If you have air in the lines it simply means you have more capacity for flow before the incoming rate exceeds outgoing, and the box overflows.

+1, thats pretty much what i said earlier, but then agin, we all have alot to learn here from MR. Matt. :deadhorse:

 

[blackthunda77]

In any event, sorry for derailing your thread nick. I still stand with my initial answer. I recommend T'ing off your return. HTH

 

[nick12881]

No worries

 

[nstiesi]

Hard to believe how many people want to give advice on something they are not doing or ever have ....come by anytime and make a documentary lol ...I have full control of any one of a number of devices .....again more mis information glad you know what I have control of lol

I ran the beananimal system for 3 years, but w/e. I stand by my opinion as to the OPs original question, I feel its better to drive the manifold via pump than gravity. OP, do your homework, decide what is best for you. Good luck!

 

[nstiesi]

Lol not true why do you think the air is there and its sucking for more ....the pump can't fill it without using some kind if valve to back pressure it ....if the drain was out produced by the pump the system would overflow......just pose yourself this question and ask yourself which one is more productive the drain or the pump ...pump has no more to give and the drain could take more....study the beananimal setup sometime you have to back pressure the drain with a gate valve or it will keep filling and draining filling and draining when the full siphon kicks in

AT EQUILIBRIUM.....you didnt quote a crucial part of my statement. If one cant maintain level in the overflow, clearly there is a problem. Reading is fundamental. Many overflow systems not named beananimal intentionally introduce air to PREVENT a full siphon, which will rapidly drain the box until the siphon breaks. This is usually done in setups without an emergency drain because once the systems is at full siphon, only a few more gph stand between water and the floor.

Again, enough hi-jacking....lets let some other people chime in on the OPs original question.

 

[blackthunda77]

Yea lets just all agree to disagree. We're all just arguing about technicalities.

 

[mrx66699]

Yea lets just all agree to disagree. We're all just arguing about technicalities.

lol wow +1:celeb1: this that would have been good advice from the start way to go John:beer::beer::beer:

 

[marke]

Matt. Do you have an emergency drain? If your inflow matches outflow all it takes is a minor restriction due to a snail or algae etc causing a flood? Unless you have an emergency drain.

 

[mrx66699]

Matt. Do you have an emergency drain? If your inflow matches outflow all it takes is a minor restriction due to a snail or algae etc causing a flood? Unless you have an emergency drain.

yes it is setup with checks and balances.....and besides doing it with an emergency drain there are multiple ways to set things up so to take into account this factor....one thing you can do is when engineering the sump you can calculate the volume of the available space in your setup and then calculate for this in the top off chamber (this may not work for everyone if space is not available)...if the drain was to clog no more than the volume of space you have allowed for will fit in the DT without overflowing and worst case scenario would be a pump running dry (which most pumps now days can run dry without harm) or you could set up with a series of float valves to shut things down in correct running orders.....and on the flip side you can allow for power outages if you calculate in building stages of the sump to allot for volume of DT running to come down into the sump and not over flow and mine is set for this also ....power shuts down water just drains to the sump

 

[leveldrummer]

Ok I edited the original as maybe I was being too harsh but please reframe from making this statement without knowing the volume of a system ...let me educate those that would like to know a good rule of thumb for volumes of water to pass entirely through a filtration system and how it is applied (following a 6-10 rate) your entire volume of your system should flip around 6-10 times per hour through your filtration.....if you gathered your background information correctly you would see 700gal system volume = 7000gal per hour flip.....and now that we are past the ****ing contest please gather your background information correctly before giving misinforming blanket statements just trying to make a point ...



Again off track not once did I mention flow in the DT, flow through a filtration system was being discussed in my post



Again more misinformation as you have no clue the volume of my system or the background information on the hardware being used ....how would you have any idea what I should or shouldnt be passing through my sump....Here let me show you. In your own words I should match the skimmer pumps to the volume of my return pumps ....so lets see the skimmer has 1 4000gph main pump and 1 3000gph salve pump oh wait thats .....wait for it....wait for it 7000gph wow what a coincidence. Thats exactly what you just tried saying here not to do or was it to do ........in one sentence you are saying dont pass 7000gph through my sump and in the very next your saying match the return pumps to the skimmer pumps which would call for 7000gph (which by the way wasn't the reference that was used when this system was built or hardware purchased)



More misinformation ...when did anyone ever say my reactors ever clogged lol
You should also read up on how much nitrates are produced from socks left in a system just one more day than should be but thats for another discussion

here if you would like to learn a few facts on sumps and filtrations I pulled this up for you ....they may take them down or not but enjoy reading while its up...

What skimmer are you running? You skimmer is rated to process a certain amount of gallons per hour, this is different then the gallons per hour that the skimmer pump is rated, because the intro of air changes that rate.

Again, there is no reason to run any more flow through your sump then what your skimmer is rated it can process. Your skimmer should be picked to suit your tank/bioload, and there is no reason to send any more water through your filtration then what that skimmer can clean.

I never said match your skimmer to your return pump, I said match your return to your skimmer, there is a very important difference there.

I dont know what happened in this thread to make you so mad and caused you to start insulting everyone with what you perceive is your supperior knowledge, but your ideas are merely opinions, not facts. Calm down, have a little respect for your fellow reefers and try to keep a civil discussion going.

Please explain what skimmer you have that processes 7000GPH?

 

[leveldrummer]

yes it is setup with checks and balances.....and besides doing it with an emergency drain there are multiple ways to set things up so to take into account this factor....one thing you can do is when engineering the sump you can calculate the volume of the available space in your setup and then calculate for this in the top off chamber (this may not work for everyone if space is not available)...if the drain was to clog no more than the volume of space you have allowed for will fit in the DT without overflowing and worst case scenario would be a pump running dry (which most pumps now days can run dry without harm) or you could set up with a series of float valves to shut things down in correct running orders.....and on the flip side you can allow for power outages if you calculate in building stages of the sump to allot for volume of DT running to come down into the sump and not over flow and mine is set for this also ....power shuts down water just drains to the sump

Yes, power shuts off, water drains to sump. we all share this common aspect...

Your mention of the top off tank doing something when the drain clogs doesnt make sense, please explain it more clearly.

 

[mrx66699]

Yes, power shuts off, water drains to sump. we all share this common aspect...

Your mention of the top off tank doing something when the drain clogs doesnt make sense, please explain it more clearly.

Your actually jumping the gun assuming this ....you wouldn't believe how many people ask me to build them a sump and give measurements that will not support the volume that is going to drain when the power is off or even how to calculate this volume or available space in the sump is done incorrectly ....and as far as your top off area your confused on calculating volume ...they have calculators on the home page of RC that will assist you in this ...

 

[leveldrummer]

Your actually jumping the gun assuming this ....you wouldn't believe how many people ask me to build them a sump and give measurements that will not support the volume that is going to drain when the power is off or even how to calculate this volume or available space in the sump is done incorrectly ....and as far as your top off area your confused on calculating volume ...they have calculators on the home page of RC that will assist you in this ...

Im not jumping any guns or assuming anything, please stop putting words in my mouth. I said we all share that aspect, meaning every tank will drain down the display when the powershuts off. we all share that. You can setup a tank so that minimum water drains out, or it can syphon out half your tank. Its a matter of setup, of the returns, not volume of the sump.


And maybe you missed my other post. but what skimmer are you running that you say processes 7000GPH?

 

[mrx66699]

I have a BK skimmer which is besides the point as it was stated as a pun and if I think about it germany lists liters not even gph...back on track though the systems total gph processing filtration is not based on the skimmer alone and if your only doing this good luck