MH HQI vs LED / Retro Fit LED

ThaChad

New member
Hey all,

I have a Coral Life 150w MH HQI hood that is about 8 years old now.

I already replaced the CFL's with LED's, which only lasted about a year before quiting on me.

My question is, is it even worth continuing to purchase MH HQI's and fix the Actinic LED's, or just bite the bullet and go full LED?

Back in the day before LED's MH HQI's were the lighting to have, and when LED's first came out, everyone said there's NO way LED's will ever have the power to replace HQI's, but It seems LED's have reached that point where they are becoming the standard now?


On the same note, does anyone know of a 48" LED Retro fit type bulb I can install in the Actinic's? I removed the CFL Sockets and ballasts when I changed to an LED bar last time, The LED bar was from E-Bay and only last about a year (Bleh!)

-ThaChad
 
I can only comment on my own experience and logic, but I went full LED in place of MH HQI because I was spending $160 per year or more on MH lamps and using a lot of power to run the MH lights, and to me it was no longer worth the continued expense. MH of course cannot be dimmed or ramped, while LED's have no problem with this. I also didn't need a controller or timer with the LED as I did for the MH. When I replaced my MH with LED I took my chiller out of the system because I no longer needed it. The chiller was an absolute must with the MH lights. I personally have no use for T5/VHO at all.

Although many reefers still consider MH the gold standard for reef lighting, current offerings of reasonably affordable, very high quality LED (Radion, AI, Kessil, and a few others) are using components perfectly suitable and proven for great coral growth. They are all extremely flexible, adjustable, and controllable. And even mid-level LED systems like the Pro fixtures from Current USA can grow most corals well.

I visited Premium Aquatics over the weekend, and while livestock is not their bread and butter, they do have a lot of corals and coral frags growing. There is not a MH or T5 light in the place. The same is true at my LFS. That tells me something, too.
 
Metal Halide is still the gold standard for reef lighting. Period. You can do OK with LED, but you are probably going to cap somewhere around 70% of what you can get with a MH. You can add some T5s to the LED, but what you are basically doing there is adding the expensive LED to the T5s since the T5s are the complete light source and should be thought of as dominant, which will one day make you wonder why you spent so much on supplements.

It is easy to grow some frags under LED - colonies are a whole different animal.

If you are planning costs, cap the LED panel usefulness at 4-5 years - nearly nobody keeps them longer than this. This can make bulbs look cheap.

When you are making up your mind, you will need to choose between the two types. The point source like Radion and Kessil blend light better, but also make a LOT of shadows and you need more to cover some area. The panel type like ReefBreeders, PacificSun or AcrOptics will spread more but folks complain about the light blending.

Here is what it comes down to. Are you the kind of person who notices the details and wants high level stuff? If so, then LED will let you down. After a while, you will notice bad color on the underside of corals, lots of shadows and some of them dying from the base up. Some people never, ever will notice and some that do notice will not care as long as they can change the panels from their couch and show their friends some thunderstorms.

BTW - A single radion XR30 will use as much wattage as 150W HQI and won't even cover the same area once you get beyond frags. Most high light folks will use two in a 2'x2' space and then throw on some T5s... especially if they have some SPS. There is no shortchanging the wattage - if you need 300W of light, you are going to use it one way or another.
 
Personally, I disagree that MH is still the gold standard for reef lighting. Period.

I've done both MH and LED, and I seriously doubt that I'd ever even consider using MH again. The coral growth I see under LED is as good as it was under MH, and with some corals it's actually better. The colors of my corals under LED is every bit as good, and generally much better than they were under MH. I keep various SPS including acropora, pocillipora, and montipora quite happily under LED lights. I also keep LPS including goniopora, euphyllia, trachyphillia, duncanopsammia, favia, acanthastrea, and blastomussa under the same LEDs. Zoanthids and discosoma love them, and the only problem I have with them is that they grow too quickly. The fish, incidentally, couldn't care less. But I think they must appreciate it when the light gradually comes on in the morning and slowly dims in the evening.

As we all know, MH lights are either on or off. They turn on, warm up for a few minutes, and then blast their way through the photoperiod at the same constant light level. With any high-quality LED fixture, however, one can easily simulate sunrise and sunset, clouds, storms, and the varying natural intensity of light throughout the day. Natural lunar cycles can be recreated with moonlighting. I can't say that this is important to corals or to any of the other livestock we keep. But it's cool, it's natural, and it's kind of fun. It's also what happens with nature, and it seems pretty logical to me that recreating the major aspects of nature as much as possible is a good thing. And none of it is possible with MH or any other light source.

Beware of misinformation. T5's are hardly a complete light source.
There is no difference between frags and colonies. They have the same requirements for light. As frags grow into colonies, they do shade themselves. That's a natural thing. But more on that later.
Nobody I've ever heard of uses two Radion XR30's for a 2'x2' space. That would be roughly equal to 700W of MH over the same space. A Radion XR30 is recommended for lighting 2'x2' for even the most demanding hobbyist situations. Also, I've heard of nobody running an XR30 at 100%. Typical is 60-70% of input power. And no, I have no stake in Radion, Ecotech, or any other lighting concern. I don't own Radions. Those who do almost universally love them. For many reasons. I don't know why anybody would argue with that.

One might argue, and rightly so, that LED lighting cannot provide a contiguous, full spectrum of light. This is true. MH can't either, but quality MH lamps are much closer to natural light in this regard. Just the same, both laboratory and anecdotal testing has shown that high-quality LED sources can and do provide the wavelengths of light that are important to corals. Would you complain that your lights don't provide enough infrared? Of course not, because your corals don't care. They don't need it. But both LED and MH can give them what they do need, and equally well. If it concerns you that your coral colonies aren't colored up on their undersides, go take a dive. Of the four major reefs that I've gone diving in, the wild coral colonies were almost always white on their undersides. Sunlight doesn't shine upwards, and it often doesn't reflect well from the ocean floor. Consider this natural, because in most wild reefs, it is.

As for costs, I used to run 370 Watts of MH over the same 4' tank that I now light with two 135w AI Hydra 52 HD LED fixtures. My PAR readings are actually about 15% higher with the LED fixtures than they were with the MH. I also run the Hydras at about 60% of their maximum input power. That's roughly 160W. A difference of 210w. At 12 hours per day, that's 2.5kW less per day. 75.5kW per month. 920kW per year. That's a lot of wasted electric power. Plus the ridiculous cost of replacement lamps. Plus having to throw all of those old lamps into the landfill. My MH lights cost about the same as the AI LED fixtures I have now. Plus the cost of a controller to turn the MH lights on and off. Plus the cost of two ballasts that burned up. Plus the cost of cooling the aquarium and the house from all that heat they generated. To me, it's a no-brainer.

The idea that LED fixtures will only last 4-5 years (and I'm not sure how one can state that 'nobody keeps them longer than this') has more to do with evolving technology than with the efficacy of the fixtures. The useful life of top-quality LEDs is 50,000 hours, or roughly 11+ years. If they meet my needs now, they probably still will do so in 10 years. Just a few years ago I would not have been able to say that because the technology was changing so quickly. But the technology has improved tremendously since then.

I still have my MH lights. I have no idea why...
 
Personally, I disagree that MH is still the gold standard for reef lighting. Period.

I've done both MH and LED, and I seriously doubt that I'd ever even consider using MH again. The coral growth I see under LED is as good as it was under MH, and with some corals it's actually better. The colors of my corals under LED is every bit as good, and generally much better than they were under MH. I keep various SPS including acropora, pocillipora, and montipora quite happily under LED lights. I also keep LPS including goniopora, euphyllia, trachyphillia, duncanopsammia, favia, acanthastrea, and blastomussa under the same LEDs. Zoanthids and discosoma love them, and the only problem I have with them is that they grow too quickly. The fish, incidentally, couldn't care less. But I think they must appreciate it when the light gradually comes on in the morning and slowly dims in the evening.

As we all know, MH lights are either on or off. They turn on, warm up for a few minutes, and then blast their way through the photoperiod at the same constant light level. With any high-quality LED fixture, however, one can easily simulate sunrise and sunset, clouds, storms, and the varying natural intensity of light throughout the day. Natural lunar cycles can be recreated with moonlighting. I can't say that this is important to corals or to any of the other livestock we keep. But it's cool, it's natural, and it's kind of fun. It's also what happens with nature, and it seems pretty logical to me that recreating the major aspects of nature as much as possible is a good thing. And none of it is possible with MH or any other light source.

Beware of misinformation. T5's are hardly a complete light source.
There is no difference between frags and colonies. They have the same requirements for light. As frags grow into colonies, they do shade themselves. That's a natural thing. But more on that later.
Nobody I've ever heard of uses two Radion XR30's for a 2'x2' space. That would be roughly equal to 700W of MH over the same space. A Radion XR30 is recommended for lighting 2'x2' for even the most demanding hobbyist situations. Also, I've heard of nobody running an XR30 at 100%. Typical is 60-70% of input power. And no, I have no stake in Radion, Ecotech, or any other lighting concern. I don't own Radions. Those who do almost universally love them. For many reasons. I don't know why anybody would argue with that.

One might argue, and rightly so, that LED lighting cannot provide a contiguous, full spectrum of light. This is true. MH can't either, but quality MH lamps are much closer to natural light in this . regard. Just the same, both laboratory and anecdotal testing has shown that high-quality LED sources can and do provide the wavelengths of light that are important to corals. Would you complain that your lights don't provide enough infrared? Of course not, because your corals don't care. They don't need it. But both LED and MH can give them what they do need, and equally well. If it concerns you that your coral colonies aren't colored up on their undersides, go take a dive. Of the four major reefs that I've gone diving in, the wild coral colonies were almost always white on their undersides. Sunlight doesn't shine upwards, and it often doesn't reflect well from the ocean floor. Consider this natural, because in most wild reefs, it is.

As for costs, I used to run 370 Watts of MH over the same 4' tank that I now light with two 135w AI Hydra 52 HD LED fixtures. My PAR readings are actually about 15% higher with the LED fixtures than they were with the MH. I also run the Hydras at about 60% of their maximum input power. That's roughly 160W. A difference of 210w. At 12 hours per day, that's 2.5kW less per day. 75.5kW per month. 920kW per year. That's a lot of wasted electric power. Plus the ridiculous cost of replacement lamps. Plus having to throw all of those old lamps into the landfill. My MH lights cost about the same as the AI LED fixtures I have now. Plus the cost of a controller to turn the MH lights on and off. Plus the cost of two ballasts that burned up. Plus the cost of cooling the aquarium and the house from all that heat they generated. To me, it's a no-brainer.

The idea that LED fixtures will only last 4-5 years (and I'm not sure how one can state that 'nobody keeps them longer than this') has more to do with evolving technology than with the efficacy of the fixtures. The useful life of top-quality LEDs is 50,000 hours, or roughly 11+ years. If they meet my needs now, they probably still will do so in 10 years. Just a few years ago I would not have been able to say that because the technology was changing so quickly. But the technology has improved tremendously since then.

I still have my MH lights. I have no idea why...
I think sanjay has 20 radions over his reef it's like 4 or 500 gallons so he definitely has them about every sq.foot btw I have used every light source in every combo, and nothing beats halide period. T5s come close and Leds are bringing up the rear which is where we are taking it when we switch to leds.
 
Two Radions XR30s for most SPS'ers who replaced a 250W halide is quite normal. Some three, but not enough to "normal." One of the guys who is in the SPS forum frequently had to use three to cover his 30x30 cube where he used a single 250W 20K Radium before.

Sanjay had to use 8 dual puck Radions to replace 3x MH at the last MACNA and still does not like the shadowing. ...still more than two, but not quite three. When one of the locals asked him about using 250W on M80 (same output as 400W MH), he thought that could be in his future with more light and less wattage than either the 400W MH that he used before or Radions that he is using now and get some heat savings back... anecdotal, but interesting.

He said that he got them for free, too. I don't know what that matters, but it does at some point.

I do find his assessment to be pretty honest and on the money. He says about 80% as good, but I put it at 70%, but I am more into SPS than he is. He is smart/experienced enough to notice the differences, but can live with them. If folks get into panels with the same expectations, they can do quite well. If they buy panels thinking or believing that they are just as good, then they can be really disappointed as they get the breath and depth of knowledge to know better.

His observation that the frags like to grow from the base-up is also on the money. One of my friends hated how his panels won't grow colonies like he is used to seeing. He is back on T5s now, but it is interesting and I don't know that anybody has an answer.

Please don't tell folks that white undersides of corals that die from the base up is "normal." This not not even close to normal.
 
I don't know if Sanjay's 500g tank is a standard size, but a standard 500g is 8' x 4' x 25"h, or 32 sq. ft. of surface area. 8 Radions over 32 sq. ft. is one per 4 sq. ft., so he would be right on the money as far as typical/recommended spacing.

Please don't be putting your words between my lines. I never mentioned corals with white undersides dying from the base up. I said it's normal on wild reefs to see corals with white undersides. I never mentioned dying, did I?

We may just disagree. If so, that's ok. I can leave it at that.
 
You are either missing the point or choosing the facts that you want... he needed more than two units to replace a MH that did the same thing and could handle the spread. What is suggested is a distinction without a difference and the real life example and observation is the real value - 8 to replace 3 and the growth is still inferior to him at 80% with some species doing well and some species not doing anything.

I don't want somebody to read what you posted and think that white undersides and unhealthy coral (I will stay away from the word dying) happens with other types of lights nearly uniformly as it does with LED based on an observation from the ocean. This attempt at normalization with a false equivalency could be harmful to the causal reefer. I think that most folks get that other than generic water chemistry, what happens on a reef and in a tank is quite a bit different. However, the white undersides and receding from the base up that happens to a lot of colonies under LED is real and needs to be pointed out to folks before they make a decision. Regardless of what happens on a dive with 5.5K light in the ocean, this is not normal in a reef tank, but does happen with LEDs as corals get larger and there is a significant difference in lighting needs from frags to colonies. This needs to be understood.

Again, with the right expectations, folks can do quite well and live with the advantages and disadvantages like any other light. With the wrong ones, there is expensive disappointment. Thanks for posting that Sanjay article - I think that he does a good job of laying it for most folks to get a good understanding of where he is coming from.
 
we can disagree but ime running radions they took a good year to get right, great color , less than desirable growth, my frag tank is a 50 breeder with 1 250 w radium over it, 20 inches above, and the radion tank or the t5 tank are not in the same league in comparison. all are zeovit reefs and all are doing well and parameters are pretty identical, with the only exception is that with the halide so far above i dont have any temp swing. i also only have underside die off on the radion reef. good luck. zsu
 
I had a 180g mixed reef with lots of sps. For years I had 4 MH (2-250w and 2-150w) and 4 39w t5's (950 watts at 100% all the time). Coral growth was very good, color was good, my chiller worked pretty hard and my home A/C worked more than I wanted.

I switched to two 32" led fixtures (660 watts total and I ran them at 40% white and 80% blue, so 60% of 660 watts) and my growth and color were just as good. As jda says, yes, there is some growth issues under some sps corals with leds. But I didn't find that to be nearly as big a deal as great looking tank with variable color doing a sunrise and a sunset of 3 or 4 hours each with much cooler white and even all blue. The corals look spectacular. If all you want is a nice colorful mid day reef, MH work fine. If you want a tank with some extras, leds work fine.

Oh, and by the way, I saved the total cost of my led fixtures ($770 for the pair) in 2 years worth of new MH & t5 bulbs. Yes I had 4 MH and 4 t5, so my bulb costs were higher than many. Throw in the savings in electricity due to the chiller and home A/C extra work and they paid for themselves in just over 1 year! I used them for 6 years and they still work like new. And it's not like MH fixtures and ballasts are bullet proof either.

They both work. They both have flaws. But to call MH the Gold Standard is pure BS to me. I switched after 6 or 7 years of MH & t5 to all led. Now about 7 years of all led and I can't see myself going back to MH ever. I like my sunrise/sunset coloring way too much.
 
You cannot say that MH is better in one paragraph and then say that calling MH gold standard is BS. If it is better for the corals, it is better. It is better, so it is the gold standard. Sunrise and sunset is for the reefer, not for the corals. If you are arguing that LED is the Gold Standard for the reefer, then maybe... I would have to think about that.

IIRC (and I may not) there was once a time when you had three sets of panels in the same two years that I used my phoenix bulbs? How did those other panel costs factor in?

Sure, if you over-light a low/medium light demand mixed reef with 4Mh and 4 T5s, you might be mad at costs... but this is hardly the fault of the lights when a trio of 150W MH would have been more than enough light (and more than you have now) which is about right where you are now wattage-wise.
 
You just can't agree that both work and both have advantages and disadvantages?

I don't buy my lighting just for my coral. I have to be part of the equation or the entire discussion is just foolish! I don't have a 200g aquarium system in my house just for the benefit of the coral, I have the system for my enjoyment too. Your argument is valid but silly.
 
There are some huge issues with your statement that "both work." It leaves out every nuance that matters. I hate false equivalencies, but here comes one (sorry)... a diet of just Krispy Kremes "will work" to keep folks alive, but is in no shape or way anything like a balanced diet. Folks do not need to read "both work" and think that they are equal and make a decision about lights that they might not like as they get a more breath and depth of experience.

I will never say that the advantages and disadvantages are equal, and they matter depending on what people want. When somebody asks what grows coral better, there is no debate that any reasonable person can make. When have you ever heard me tell anybody that one lighting or the other is better for them? I usually just talk about what is best for the coral since only the poster can decide what is best for them. You have surely seen me tell folks that for a low/medium light demand mixed reef, that wide panels are probably just fine (like you, I am not a huge fan of the point-source fixtures) - my repertoire is not binary.

I do buy equipment for the coral. I don't feel that I can be good keeper otherwise. These are living organisms that need every advantage that we can give them and I am not willing to use something that I know is inferior for them. I took on this responsibility and I take it seriously. I don't put 85 octane in my muscle car because it is better for me to save 20 cents a gallon. I don't feed our dogs scraps because it is easy, or cheap food because it saves money. I don't parent my kids in a way that is best for me by ignoring their issues and not having tough, hard discussions about things that will make them good adults. There are plenty of people just like this that need to know what is best for the coral.

When I sign up to be responsible for something and make a commitment, I come last. If you see this hobby as only a partial responsibility and commitment, then folks might want to know what percentage is about you vs the living creatures so that your recommendations can be weighed appropriately if they feel differently.
 
btw my $800 dollar radions have been relegated to supplement my t5 lit display, just the blues running . quite disconserting after getting them right after a years work, but they do give the pop and ramp up and down which is nice, probaly could have done that with a $20 dollar strip, what a joke. ah live and learn. radions are really for lps imo
maybe someday leds will catch up, i hope so cause they sure are sexy lookin. good luck.....zsu
 
It's still an interesting discussion, although it would be nice to see a little more color and a little less black-and-white. But maybe some of the difference of opinions has to do with purpose. When it comes to lighting or almost any other equipment, the needs or desires of a coral farmer are most definitely going to be different from the average home hobbyist reefer. This, however, does not necessarily make one product or technology better than another. It might make one better for one purpose, but that criteria does not comprise a standard, gold, silver, or otherwise.

Personally, I have seen high growth rates with both MH and LED. MH was a little faster in my experience. That's important to a coral farmer. It's meaningless to me. I want my corals to grow well, but more importantly, I want them healthy and colorful. The last thing I need is a tank overrun with fast growing, bland-colored corals that are crowding each other, fighting with each other, killing each other, or needing to be constantly cut back in order to maintain the peace. I much prefer, in a home/hobby tank (which is the vast majority of reef tanks in the world), to have steady, predictable, manageable growth, excellent health, and excellent color.

LED gives my corals much better color than MH ever did, and everything is healthy. The substantial cost savings allows me to spend my hobby budget on more useful and more important things than the power company. That's my standard, and I don't care to put a precious metal tag onto it. But it makes a blanket statement that "XYZ is the gold standard" seem rather silly and narrow-minded.
 
How bad of a MH setup did you have? Nearly nobody who has a breath and depth of experience to know will say that MH produced worse color - it is usually that they know that the LED has worse color, but the other things make it worth owning, which is cool. I guess that if you had a really bad fixture like an Odyssea or mismatched ballasts and bulbs, this is possible. A best-of-breed MH fixture will color all coral better than any MH outside of dusk/dawn or blacklight stuff that has nothing to do with the coral. I know that there were all kinds of bad MH on the market back then, but using those are like comparing to a Marineland 20x .5W diode that every PetsMart has... better to compare best to best.

Also, if you are seeing cost saving, you had too much light on before or not enough now. Sanjay nailed this in his article. There are no real savings over an appropriately lit tank from one to another. You have to pay for output - there is no way around it. I get that folks have found out by using panels that they did not need as much light as they thought (this is a good thing), but that is not the fault of what they had before. My typical recommendation to anybody who asks is to use 150W HQI over every 2x2 area without any supplements for a low/medium light demand mixed reef - for 2' tank 150W, 4' tank 300W, 6' tank 450W... A XR30 Radion Single (and as we have pointed out after you refused to believe it, lots of people use more than one) at 190W at 60% with 2T5s (minimum) over the same area is 4' Tank 336, 6' for 498. These are about the same. I get that some folks live in Arizona or Florida, but for the rest of us, the IR heat is a blessing and saves expensive heater costs - heat is my #1 expense by far.
 
Hey all,

I have a Coral Life 150w MH HQI hood that is about 8 years old now.

I already replaced the CFL's with LED's, which only lasted about a year before quiting on me.

My question is, is it even worth continuing to purchase MH HQI's and fix the Actinic LED's, or just bite the bullet and go full LED?

-ThaChad

Yes definitely worth it.

Halides are amazing reef lights.

If your system is in good shape, just change our your MH bulbs to new bulbs ones with higher PAR and you will be in good shape for not a lot of money.
 
I visited Premium Aquatics over the weekend, and while livestock is not their bread and butter, they do have a lot of corals and coral frags growing. There is not a MH or T5 light in the place. The same is true at my LFS. That tells me something, too.

For what its worth, when I go down to RAP in Orange County I always visit several large coral wholesalers in LA. Big places with a lot of choice coral which is supplied then to LFS throughout the US.

They all have halide set ups and T5 set ups in there. They also do have LED tanks. But, I have seen several T5 and/or Halide set ups in there that appear newer looking.
 
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