MH HQI vs LED / Retro Fit LED

[PhreeBYrd]

How bad of a MH setup did you have?

I had (still have) a 4' Aqua Medic OceanLight with 2x 150W HQI and 1x 70W HQI... running the (3) factory Aqua Medic ballasts. I used it for at least 10 years, with Reeflux, Phoenix, and Ushio DE lamps. Never tried any cheap lamps. 370W total, 12-13 hours per day. Coral colors were good. Not outstanding, but good. This was over a 4', standard 75g glass tank.

Also, if you are seeing cost saving, you had too much light on before or not enough now. Sanjay nailed this in his article. There are no real savings over an appropriately lit tank from one to another.

In his article, Sanjay never said what % output he was using on the LED fixtures. Could be 100%, could be 40%. And if you're saying that 1 watt worth of light is always the same regardless of the light source, this is not correct (my apologies if I've misunderstood). At a given power output, light output varies greatly among different sources. MH lights produce both light and intense heat. The input power creates both. Watts are required to produce the heat, and power that is producing heat is not necessarily producing light, or at least not the light we want. Imagine two different light sources using the same input power. One source runs very cool (fluorescent or LED). One runs very hot (incandescent, MH, quartz). Which produces the most visible light per watt of input power? Physics tells us that the cool-running ones will. Adjust things so that the visible light output between the sources is the same, and the cool-running source will use less power for the same PAR. That's just basic physics, and there is no debating it. The fact that most of the MH heat is probably being produced as infrared light is not really important, since the corals have no use for infrared, as far as I'm aware. For my purposes, heat is heat and light is (visible) light.

I can't compare the Radion XR30's. I'm using a pair of AI Hydra 52HD's. I can only say that previously I used 370W of MH, and now I use slightly more than half of the available 270 total watts from the two Hydras, or roughly 160W. My corals are still just as healthy, growing fine, and the appearance of the tank is as good to my eye. I have no nuisance algae, and the coloring of every coral in the tank is better now, even at the same color temperature of light. Were the MH lights producing 210W worth of heat and only 160W (or less) worth of light? I haven't tried to calculate it, and don't really have much interest in doing so, but it's certainly possible.

What I can say is that I was happy with the MH while I used them (aside from the heat and the cost of operation). And I'm just as happy with the Hydra 52 HD's now... and I'm saving money with them every day.

 

[jda]

Corals do use wavelengths well below 400 and some use above 700 (to a lesser degree) - this is well know. Just a few years ago all of the LED folks thought that coral could never use UV, remember that? - now every good panel has some. IR will be next, but probably to a lesser degree and more specialized. I am mostly into SPS and there are a handful of types of coral that nearly nobody can keep under LED - most of them come from very shallow water and the thought is that they are missing the IR. Some think that the pigments that corals use to keep the heat from the IR away are colors that are missing from LED setups - colorful sunscreen.

PAR meter picks up spectrum from about 430 to 650 - they will go to 410 and 655, but only with very limited detection. The output from 350 to 430 from some light sources can be half again as much and VERY important to most corals. Something like a VHO Super Actinic, which is a hall-of-fame bulb for coral, will put out 75% of it's output below what a PAR meter can detect. PAR is like horsepower - fun to talk about but mostly worthless when torque gets the job done. Unfortunately, to get the torque of a reef light requires an tens-of-thousands-of-dollars integrated sphere of which there are only a very few data points for analysis.

BTW - Yes, when using an integrated sphere, there are no efficiencies in light. If you want to match 250W of Halide, you need to use 250W of LED when measuring total output. The only way to cut electricity is to cut spectrum (which everybody knows is no good for living creatures, but can be quite good for lighting a living room) or cut output. If you use an abbreviated tool like a PAR meter, then it can be different - it is a shame that some companies design panels to make better PAR numbers rather than to make better coral. If somebody decided to design a MH bulb to just test between 430 and 650, the numbers would be off the charts - some 10K and 6.5K halide bulbs are down these lines and they have par 12" under the water over 900-1000. LEDs pick up more in an integrated sphere too since they produce under 430.

Assuming that the range of light that the human eye can see or a PAR meter can detect is very dangerous. I get where it comes from since some LED manufactures used to really tout this to sell panels for their own good, but hobbyists need to know better.

At MACNA, Dr Joshi said that he took his wattage reading at the wall, so that includes the transformer and driver overhead and also the percent that he was running them at. This is as real as it gets.

 

[RedGabino]

It's funny to see you guys arguing. There is no need to get angry. Everything in this hobby is about personal experience. In my case, I run my tanks with MH for years, then I turn to LED and I'm happier now, better grow, better color, better health in all my animals. Cheaper to maintain and easier. So it worked for me. So, for me LED is the new standard for reef lights.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

 

[pache11]

IR is definitely the easiest to produce. Heaters, LEDs, Halides, or anything else that produces heat. Of course our corals need IR=HEAT.

 

[ktownhero]

Corals do use wavelengths well below 400 and some use above 700 (to a lesser degree) - this is well know. Just a few years ago all of the LED folks thought that coral could never use UV, remember that? - now every good panel has some. IR will be next, but probably to a lesser degree and more specialized. I am mostly into SPS and there are a handful of types of coral that nearly nobody can keep under LED - most of them come from very shallow water and the thought is that they are missing the IR. Some think that the pigments that corals use to keep the heat from the IR away are colors that are missing from LED setups - colorful sunscreen.

PAR meter picks up spectrum from about 430 to 650 - they will go to 410 and 655, but only with very limited detection. The output from 350 to 430 from some light sources can be half again as much and VERY important to most corals. Something like a VHO Super Actinic, which is a hall-of-fame bulb for coral, will put out 75% of it's output below what a PAR meter can detect. PAR is like horsepower - fun to talk about but mostly worthless when torque gets the job done. Unfortunately, to get the torque of a reef light requires an tens-of-thousands-of-dollars integrated sphere of which there are only a very few data points for analysis.

BTW - Yes, when using an integrated sphere, there are no efficiencies in light. If you want to match 250W of Halide, you need to use 250W of LED when measuring total output. The only way to cut electricity is to cut spectrum (which everybody knows is no good for living creatures, but can be quite good for lighting a living room) or cut output. If you use an abbreviated tool like a PAR meter, then it can be different - it is a shame that some companies design panels to make better PAR numbers rather than to make better coral. If somebody decided to design a MH bulb to just test between 430 and 650, the numbers would be off the charts - some 10K and 6.5K halide bulbs are down these lines and they have par 12" under the water over 900-1000. LEDs pick up more in an integrated sphere too since they produce under 430.

Assuming that the range of light that the human eye can see or a PAR meter can detect is very dangerous. I get where it comes from since some LED manufactures used to really tout this to sell panels for their own good, but hobbyists need to know better.

At MACNA, Dr Joshi said that he took his wattage reading at the wall, so that includes the transformer and driver overhead and also the percent that he was running them at. This is as real as it gets.

Why are you writing books?

They are both good and have advantages and disadvantages over one another. Preference is personal taste at this point. The. End.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[lilphil26]

I got my radion as a gift from the gf so it's the one I use!

 

[ThaChad]

... I have used every light source in every combo, and nothing beats halide period. T5s come close and Leds are bringing up the rear which is where we are taking it when we switch to leds.

I always find it funny when people think T5's are the greatest short of MH's...

I had a T5 Fixture, I replaced my old VHO's with the T5 and It was about worthless.

The BEST/MOST Coralline Algae growth I've ever had was with 2x 4' VHO bulbs. I never had anything but soft Corals when I had VHO's, but the Coraline Algae and soft corals grew like weeds.

I switched to T5's and the Coralline Algae basically STOPPED growing completely and over the course of about a year, the Soft Corals not own stopped growing, but actually receeded. I went from 2x 4' VHO's to 4x 4' T5's, 1 Actinic, 1 50/50 and 2 Daylight.

With MH's, I have seen HUGE hair Algae blooms (Seems as though that is the telling key when they need to be replaced), moderate Coralline Algae Growth (No where near as much as the VHO's) and soft corals seem like 50/50, I have Green Ricordea Mushroom's that grow/spread like WEEDS and have grown large enough that the Clowns treat them as an anemone.. But I have tried many other Soft Corals and LPS Corals and have had mixed results, but none have thrived. I have never tried to keep Hard Coras, as I they just don't do anything for me.

I have forever wished I could use VHO's again. I've long thought that VHO's/MH's would be the cat's meow, but I don't have any way to mount VHO's since I upgreaded from a 55 to a 90.

I have seen a few LFS's tanks that were lit by LED's and they look AMAZING. The coral's look like they were under Black Light, the water shimmered and even the Fish Glowed. But I also know that often a LFS's tank's look amazing nothing is kept long term in them, so it's a False Positive.

Right now, no matter what I need to replace the Actinic lights in my Coralife Hood, As I mentioned in the origional post, I removed the CF's an their ballasts and replaced them with LED Actinic Strips from eBay and they did not last. So now I either need to find sutable LED Replacement strips that will mount inside the Coralife Hood, or figure out how to Mound T5 or CF's back into the hood, as right now I have no Actinic's. I guess I would rather go with T5's over CF's as I was never impressed by the CF's and T5's are cheaper. But would really rather go with LED's, but don't want to have to replace them every 6 months like the eBay led strips (That say they are waterproof)..

-ThaChad

 

[ThaChad]

I was kind of looking at something like this:

https://www.chewy.com/current-usa-o...gclid=CKTruZmIndQCFQqUaQod4tUCZA&gclsrc=aw.ds

I realize it's not the HO $700 panels. But Again, I'm not growing Hard/SPS Corals. Soft Corals and a couple LPS corals and maybe an anemone.

-ThaChad

 

[ThaChad]

I would also consider this:

https://www.reefbreeders.com/shop/photon-48-long/

They have a newer versio a Phonton v2 which has 5w LED's, but I think 3w LED's would be plenty for my tank.

-ThaChad

 

[zsuman101]

I always find it funny when people think T5's are the greatest short of MH's...

I had a T5 Fixture, I replaced my old VHO's with the T5 and It was about worthless.

The BEST/MOST Coralline Algae growth I've ever had was with 2x 4' VHO bulbs. I never had anything but soft Corals when I had VHO's, but the Coraline Algae and soft corals grew like weeds.

I switched to T5's and the Coralline Algae basically STOPPED growing completely and over the course of about a year, the Soft Corals not own stopped growing, but actually receeded. I went from 2x 4' VHO's to 4x 4' T5's, 1 Actinic, 1 50/50 and 2 Daylight.

With MH's, I have seen HUGE hair Algae blooms (Seems as though that is the telling key when they need to be replaced), moderate Coralline Algae Growth (No where near as much as the VHO's) and soft corals seem like 50/50, I have Green Ricordea Mushroom's that grow/spread like WEEDS and have grown large enough that the Clowns treat them as an anemone.. But I have tried many other Soft Corals and LPS Corals and have had mixed results, but none have thrived. I have never tried to keep Hard Coras, as I they just don't do anything for me.

I have forever wished I could use VHO's again. I've long thought that VHO's/MH's would be the cat's meow, but I don't have any way to mount VHO's since I upgreaded from a 55 to a 90.

I have seen a few LFS's tanks that were lit by LED's and they look AMAZING. The coral's look like they were under Black Light, the water shimmered and even the Fish Glowed. But I also know that often a LFS's tank's look amazing nothing is kept long term in them, so it's a False Positive.

Right now, no matter what I need to replace the Actinic lights in my Coralife Hood, As I mentioned in the origional post, I removed the CF's an their ballasts and replaced them with LED Actinic Strips from eBay and they did not last. So now I either need to find sutable LED Replacement strips that will mount inside the Coralife Hood, or figure out how to Mound T5 or CF's back into the hood, as right now I have no Actinic's. I guess I would rather go with T5's over CF's as I was never impressed by the CF's and T5's are cheaper. But would really rather go with LED's, but don't want to have to replace them every 6 months like the eBay led strips (That say they are waterproof)..

-ThaChad

it matters what type fixture you use ,bulbs,ballasts etc all play a big part. A coralife fixture is good enough for softies and other lower light corals for sure, but sps is another thing, lots of bulbs and real ballasts and reflectors make all the difference with t5s . As for mh a quality German fixture with a German made reflector and a radium bulb forget it nothing comes close. As for algae any lighting will cause that when bulbs are old or nutrients are high. Including leds.

 

[cobra2326]

BTW - Yes, when using an integrated sphere, there are no efficiencies in light. If you want to match 250W of Halide, you need to use 250W of LED when measuring total output. The only way to cut electricity is to cut spectrum (which everybody knows is no good for living creatures, but can be quite good for lighting a living room) or cut output. If you use an abbreviated tool like a PAR meter, then it can be different - it is a shame that some companies design panels to make better PAR numbers rather than to make better coral. If somebody decided to design a MH bulb to just test between 430 and 650, the numbers would be off the charts - some 10K and 6.5K halide bulbs are down these lines and they have par 12" under the water over 900-1000. LEDs pick up more in an integrated sphere too since they produce under 430.

I would love to see references for this. I'm happy to provide some to the contrary, although I'm not totally sure what you mean by "integrated sphere".

 

[cobra2326]

Corals do use wavelengths well below 400 and some use above 700 (to a lesser degree) - this is well know. Just a few years ago all of the LED folks thought that coral could never use UV, remember that? - now every good panel has some. IR will be next, but probably to a lesser degree and more specialized. I am mostly into SPS and there are a handful of types of coral that nearly nobody can keep under LED - most of them come from very shallow water and the thought is that they are missing the IR. Some think that the pigments that corals use to keep the heat from the IR away are colors that are missing from LED setups - colorful sunscreen.

I'm sure you're aware of this: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/red-light-negatively-affects-health-of-stony-coral. Also, your usage of the term UV is a bit generous. Most LED/T5 bulbs, even the current-gen LED fixtures, produce little or no spectrum in the UV range (< 400nm). Most drop off around the 400nm mark.

 

[jda]

I never recommended that anybody use Phillips LEDs for corals. Nor will I keep a stylophora since they breed all over my tank - under MH with tons of red light. This study always seemed as dumb to me as the one where they concluded that fish not really meant to be in captivity fed a mysterious diet all got HLLE because somebody used activated carbon. Look at the graph of a 20K Radium or a UVL Super Actinic. Most of the popular T5 bulbs do indeed go down to 350 and have significant amount of output below 400. Some of the popular LEDs have rushed to put "UV" in their latest models.

An Integrating Sphere is an actual pro-quality piece of equipment to measure light output. There were a few posts on here where a guy got to use one - you can most likely search for them. Unfortunately, there were only a few bulbs tested, but a 14K Ushio on Electronic Ballast was 250W at the wall and 41W of Radiated output for a 16% efficiency. Kessil A350W at 100% on all channels was 90W at the wall and 13W radiated for a 14% efficiency. This kinda tells folks what they already knew - that it would take 3+ Kessils to replace a non-best of breed MH setup and probably more since nobody that I know runs their Kessil at 100%. Radion XR15 (not sure which gen) was a bit more efficient, but output was still low at 100%.

I really wanted to see a 20K radium on M80, 400W Radium and 14K Phoenix tested since they are best of breed, but it never got done. On Sanjay's old MH output page, all three of these were more than twice the output of the 14K Ushio on electronic that was used in this experiment. I wish that I knew if this would scale to the sphere output, or not.

 

[cobra2326]

I never recommended that anybody use Phillips LEDs for corals. Nor will I keep a stylophora since they breed all over my tank - under MH with tons of red light. This study always seemed as dumb to me as the one where they concluded that fish not really meant to be in captivity fed a mysterious diet all got HLLE because somebody used activated carbon. Look at the graph of a 20K Radium or a UVL Super Actinic. Most of the popular T5 bulbs do indeed go down to 350 and have significant amount of output below 400. Some of the popular LEDs have rushed to put "UV" in their latest models.

An Integrating Sphere is an actual pro-quality piece of equipment to measure light output. There were a few posts on here where a guy got to use one - you can most likely search for them. Unfortunately, there were only a few bulbs tested, but a 14K Ushio on Electronic Ballast was 250W at the wall and 41W of Radiated output for a 16% efficiency. Kessil A350W at 100% on all channels was 90W at the wall and 13W radiated for a 14% efficiency. This kinda tells folks what they already knew - that it would take 3+ Kessils to replace a non-best of breed MH setup and probably more since nobody that I know runs their Kessil at 100%. Radion XR15 (not sure which gen) was a bit more efficient, but output was still low at 100%.

I really wanted to see a 20K radium on M80, 400W Radium and 14K Phoenix tested since they are best of breed, but it never got done. On Sanjay's old MH output page, all three of these were more than twice the output of the 14K Ushio on electronic that was used in this experiment. I wish that I knew if this would scale to the sphere output, or not.

Actually, the radions, AI Hydra and others have had "UV" for several generations. The "rush" has been to fill in the 420-440nm which has been lacking. It's also lacking in most 20000K radium bulbs. The very popular ATI AB+ bulb peaks in this range, which is probably part of the motivation. That and the huge peak in Chlorophyll A absorption at that wavelength. Flourescent absorption/emission is probably just as important though.

A lot of what you're saying is just FUD. It's unfortunate, because I really enjoy your opinion in a lot of discussions I've read as I lurk

 

[jda]

Here is some more FUD for you. I found the link to the Integrating Sphere results.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23346752#post23346752

What do you mean by that Spectrum is lacking on most 20K Radium bulbs? They haven't changed their spectrum. Are you saying that there are defects? This chart shows a Radium on M80 (the right ballast) and the output at 420-440 is more than every other spectrum from 440-460. I have never used the AB bulb, but I wish that somebody would make a T5 anywhere near the URI VHO Super Actinic which had huge amounts in this range.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22662860&postcount=41

...same guy, same experiences. This is not the first time that I have been called or accused of this... just be a man and at least send me a PM someday when something hits you out of nowhere and you start to figure out that I am not that far off... some folks have and some just disappear.

 

[cobra2326]

Here is some more FUD for you. I found the link to the Integrating Sphere results.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23346752#post23346752

What do you mean by that Spectrum is lacking on most 20K Radium bulbs? They haven't changed their spectrum. Are you saying that there are defects? This chart shows a Radium on M80 (the right ballast) and the output at 420-440 is more than every other spectrum from 440-460. I have never used the AB bulb, but I wish that somebody would make a T5 anywhere near the URI VHO Super Actinic which had huge amounts in this range.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22662860&postcount=41

...same guy, same experiences. This is not the first time that I have been called or accused of this... just be a man and at least send me a PM someday when something hits you out of nowhere and you start to figure out that I am not that far off... some folks have and some just disappear.

Yep, I read that post immediately after you mentioned it. It's interesting stuff, but I noticed how you neglected to mention the efficiency of the Radion XR15W. That's also the G2 fixture. G4 uses Oslon SSL LEDs which have 30% higher radiant flux so the efficiency is even higher.

Anyways, I can fact check all night and we can go tit for tat. I'm a complete newb when it comes to SPS and all I have is theory and research right now. The issue I'm taking is you're cherry picking facts to support what you want to see. If halides work best for you and aren't causing significant issues with heat or otherwise, keep using them. Efficiency is offset by the price of most LED fixtures anyway. But delegitimizing LED with sensationalized statements or cherry-picked studies helps no one.

Maybe in a year I'll be gone and you'll still be here. You've done a lot for the community and your opinion carries more weight than most. Use your well-earned reputation to present the facts AND your opinions, but keep fact separate from opinion and let people decide for themselves.

 

[zsuman101]

Does it really matter what the graphs point out? Could the real magic just be contained in the little gas filled bulbs that emit all the wavelength together in a homogeneous spray without all the different wavelength hotspots? I think so . So photons are photons I agree but how they are mixed is where halides got it going on and where Leds need to figure it out still

 

[jda]

Cobra - if you every set up a larger tank, you will get there. All of the internet reading and experiences from a nano aren't quite the same as trying to figure out a real life way to light a larger tank and most have found out that there are no efficiencies of LED and without them, what is the point of inferior spectrum and results for most medium/high light demand tanks? There can be a point, but it seems more reefer based than coral based. You seem pretty smart and thoughtful and I have no doubt that you will get to the same place if this day ever happens, even though you might still end up with LEDs and knowingly live with the shortcomings if you cannot get past the heat being in Florida (it is easily mitigated, but I get that folks don't always believe this at first).

I don't mention the Radion results because I am not certain which model it is. I am pretty sure that he told me in a PM that it was a Gen 3, but it is not in the post, so it leaves too much to guessing. It matters just like the differences in 350 and 360 Kessil. In any case, not a Gen 4 which I have no doubt is touted to have even better spectrum and be even more efficient, but I have been hearing this for almost a decade now.

Here is another guy who I really respect his opinion who does a really good job of laying out his experience with LED and why he stays with them even though it took so many to do the job (he got them for free) and they are not quite as good. This could be FUD too, but his talk at MACNA was really good and really surprised a lot of folks. His experiences with some SPS just doing nothing under LED is quite real - milles, pearlberry, PM and many others are an exception for LED folks to keep well. Maybe we are FUD buddies.
https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

BTW - do the photos work on your BT, or am I the only one who cannot see them?

 

[PhreeBYrd]

jda, is this what corals under LED look like when they're dying from the undersides because LED can't light them as well as MH? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Not a speck of white anywhere on this elkhorn montipora, growing under LED for the last 2 years, except for the profusion of growth tips.


There is so much hogwash and BS in this thread. Thanks for chiming in, cobra2326. Some semblance of sanity and common sense returns.

 

[ThaChad]

:headwalls::headwalls::headwalls:




I'm not even sure this is my thread any more? Am I even aloud to post here? :eek2:

:hmm3::hmm3:

Funny thing. I've read about a dozen other forums in the last week and not 1 single one had ANYTHING bad to say about LED's, Except to be cautious of the Cheap fixtures from China/Ebay.

Of Course, I'm sure there is the 1% that are commercial Hard Coral Growers, But for lil ol' me, and probably the majority of the rest of us, It sounds like LED's ARE superior to MH/HQI.. :celeb1::celeb1:

-ThaChad