Mhucasey's SPS obsession

First of all, I'm glad to see reasonable minds discuss a topic in a thoughtful, reasonable and informative way.. Often a difficult thing when typing on a machine..
My kind of thread!!
Matt thanks for your usual detailed response, very nice!
So, another question. As you are aware, I'm running 3 150w de mh in 12inx12in. Reflectors. Tank is 26 inches deep.. I am very close to going to 2 x 250 w moguls in 16x16 in. Reflectors. The ballasts are select a watt with the 'hqi' setting to over drive the bulbs.. (Radiums obviously)
I actually like having a good reduction in par so that I won't over light some of the deep water corals I have lower down..
What do you think? Will going to 2 x 250w in larger reflectors benefit my current set up?
In your opinion... Of course! :)
 
First of all, I'm glad to see reasonable minds discuss a topic in a thoughtful, reasonable and informative way.. Often a difficult thing when typing on a machine..
My kind of thread!!
Matt thanks for your usual detailed response, very nice!
So, another question. As you are aware, I'm running 3 150w de mh in 12inx12in. Reflectors. Tank is 26 inches deep.. I am very close to going to 2 x 250 w moguls in 16x16 in. Reflectors. The ballasts are select a watt with the 'hqi' setting to over drive the bulbs.. (Radiums obviously)
I actually like having a good reduction in par so that I won't over light some of the deep water corals I have lower down..
What do you think? Will going to 2 x 250w in larger reflectors benefit my current set up?
In your opinion... Of course! :)

Discussion of ideas is the reason I frequent this board - and why i steer clear of Facebook:P That and coral porn;)


As for the question, I think that the 250 watt Radiums will be very good for the reef. Based on everything I've seen I think that there is a difference in the way that Acropora respond to directional light as opposed to the more even bathing of light that T5s produce. You will need to start off with short photoperiods and work your way up, but 250 watters are pretty safe over a tank your size and with wide reflectors. In my opinion Radiums are the gold standard.

Now this is speculative on my part, and its based on a lot of reading of anecdote mixed with some par testing. I don't have any proof of what i am theorizing here.

I believe I have seen a pretty good consensus that very evenly diffused light sources like T5s can produce a lot of light, but both my personal experience and through those of others there is rarely, if ever burning of corals of the kind that happens under MH. "Why is that?" I've had corals in PAR approaching 600 without that happening, and I don't do the whole "move it up slowly" thing. I've even had an LFS owner who deals in thousands of frags tell me that if its under T5s just put new frags wherever and they will be fine. When I first got my 8 bulb fixture I put it 5 inches off the water over a reef that had been under-lit with LEDs and went to full photoperiod, no issues.
I saw one other lighting system with the same thing - the LANI LED panels, which have very diffuse light and generate pretty high par. A couple of big tank setups from Europe have reported that they ran the panels at 100 percent from day one, no burned corals.

Under MH (and especially LED), why do corals burn? I've seen enough PAR tests to conclude that a coral placed under each type of light is probably receiving roughly the same amount of measurable PAR, perhaps even more from the T5 tanks.

One Idea I had was that the differential between the light coming directly from the bulb and the reflected, diffuse light of the reflector that surrounds the MH bulb result in areas of coral with extreme photosynthetic activity immediately next to areas with much less photosynthetic activity. To use an analogy, the MH is like cooking with a broiler while T5 is like baking in an oven(And compact LEDs are like cooking with a blowtorch). The even light of the T5s results in a more gradual drop off of light intensity striking areas next to the tops of the corals.

"Baking" the coral all over may not lead to visible damage like burns - but the overall high level of photosynthesis induces changes in the coral's energy budget, and if there is too much light the coral may abandon production of pigments that function to enhance the use of light in lower light conditions, the coral may have a difficult time restraining the reproduction of Zooxanthellae and become browner/duller, or may even produce protection pigments that dull the coral. I have seen corals turn darker/browner after increasing the amount of light - thats opposite of the accepted though that higher light induces lightening of corals.

I have more along these lines but if you have read this far, thanks for hanging in there:p If you have, let me know if any of this makes sense...
 
Thanks Matt!! :)
I'll go with the 250 watters and ramp up their photoperiod over several weeks.
I'll just keep 4 of my 5 current t5s..
I couldn't begin to respond to your theory on a coral's reaction to t5 vs mh..
I have no idea!
 
Discussion of ideas is the reason I frequent this board - and why i steer clear of Facebook:P That and coral porn;)


As for the question, I think that the 250 watt Radiums will be very good for the reef. Based on everything I've seen I think that there is a difference in the way that Acropora respond to directional light as opposed to the more even bathing of light that T5s produce. You will need to start off with short photoperiods and work your way up, but 250 watters are pretty safe over a tank your size and with wide reflectors. In my opinion Radiums are the gold standard.

Now this is speculative on my part, and its based on a lot of reading of anecdote mixed with some par testing. I don't have any proof of what i am theorizing here.

I believe I have seen a pretty good consensus that very evenly diffused light sources like T5s can produce a lot of light, but both my personal experience and through those of others there is rarely, if ever burning of corals of the kind that happens under MH. "Why is that?" I've had corals in PAR approaching 600 without that happening, and I don't do the whole "move it up slowly" thing. I've even had an LFS owner who deals in thousands of frags tell me that if its under T5s just put new frags wherever and they will be fine. When I first got my 8 bulb fixture I put it 5 inches off the water over a reef that had been under-lit with LEDs and went to full photoperiod, no issues.
I saw one other lighting system with the same thing - the LANI LED panels, which have very diffuse light and generate pretty high par. A couple of big tank setups from Europe have reported that they ran the panels at 100 percent from day one, no burned corals.

Under MH (and especially LED), why do corals burn? I've seen enough PAR tests to conclude that a coral placed under each type of light is probably receiving roughly the same amount of measurable PAR, perhaps even more from the T5 tanks.

One Idea I had was that the differential between the light coming directly from the bulb and the reflected, diffuse light of the reflector that surrounds the MH bulb result in areas of coral with extreme photosynthetic activity immediately next to areas with much less photosynthetic activity. To use an analogy, the MH is like cooking with a broiler while T5 is like baking in an oven(And compact LEDs are like cooking with a blowtorch). The even light of the T5s results in a more gradual drop off of light intensity striking areas next to the tops of the corals.

"Baking" the coral all over may not lead to visible damage like burns - but the overall high level of photosynthesis induces changes in the coral's energy budget, and if there is too much light the coral may abandon production of pigments that function to enhance the use of light in lower light conditions, the coral may have a difficult time restraining the reproduction of Zooxanthellae and become browner/duller, or may even produce protection pigments that dull the coral. I have seen corals turn darker/browner after increasing the amount of light - thats opposite of the accepted though that higher light induces lightening of corals.

I have more along these lines but if you have read this far, thanks for hanging in there:p If you have, let me know if any of this makes sense...

I tend to agree with your theory. It seems like you can pump more par with diffused light like T-5 with much less risk to burn them than with direct source lights like mh or led.
 
This will be my test coral, the Red Planet. Its under the outside edge of one of the 6 bulb fixtures, which have been 10" off the water for a couple of days now.

IMG_8205_zpsck1o607r.jpg


IMG_8212_zpskgbzpbgr.jpg


I'm looking for more green down in the branches. The saturation of red leads me to believe that this coral is getting a ton of light. After a week I will reassess and then raise the lights an inch if the green isn't developing.

This is another test coral, the Pink tabling Acro. Its gorgeous, but it arrived with blue tips. The more I baked this one the pinker it got. I'm curious to see if reduced light will bring back the blue:

IMG_8202_zpsxq1ekuei.jpg


And this is the coral that has recently been developing color. Its a smooth skinned Acro, and it is pretty cool so i moved it out toward the edge of the reef so I can see it better:

IMG_8200_zpss2mkcvma.jpg
 
This should be very interesting. I'll be watching closely.
I have a red planet which is half way up in my tank near the centre. A fairly good spot for light but not very high.. Mine is mostly green with only red tips..
His is why I am planning the increase to 250w mh. I assume this coral could
Benefit from more light and by extension, the rest of the tank.

It's nice to have a coral which has such predictable color/light patterns...
 
This should be very interesting. I'll be watching closely.
I have a red planet which is half way up in my tank near the centre. A fairly good spot for light but not very high.. Mine is mostly green with only red tips..
This is why I am planning the increase to 250w mh. I assume this coral could
benefit from more light and by extension, the rest of the tank.

It's nice to have a coral which has such predictable color/light patterns...
 
I'm trying hard to not change anything other than the lighting during this experiment. The Red planet was previously about 8 inches under the water with lights 6-7 inches above the water line, and it was below the second bulb from the edge of the 8-bulb sun power fixture. Bulb length/wattage was the same. I'm interested to see what happens:)
 
Really interested in seeing how this will work matt,thanks for sharing:beer:

Me too, Mike. I'm taking pics each day, so far no change is visible on that coral. The other corals in the tank seem to be improving in general, and I've had to raise my Alk/Ca dose twice this week since I'm well below 7DKH...
 
Your colors are looking REALLY good! I love that pink piece a lot. Looking forward to following along with your experiment.
 
Its hard to not change more things in the tank, but I want to keep the experiment as clean as possible. I'm feeding 3 times a day, dosing my trace elements once a week, and not changing the skimmer or pellet reactor speed. Its very difficult!:fun5:
 
Lighting update:
The red planet seems have lightened a bit, and some other corals have improved as well. The lights were raised to 10 inches above the water on 08/16(pretty sure of the date)

The first picture of the Red Planet was taken 08/18:

IMG_8212_zpskgbzpbgr.jpg


Tonight it looked like this:

Red%20Planet%20top%20082215_zps144cazjt.jpg


Ill keep everyone updated as things change...
 
Its hard to not change more things in the tank, but I want to keep the experiment as clean as possible. I'm feeding 3 times a day, dosing my trace elements once a week, and not changing the skimmer or pellet reactor speed. Its very difficult!:fun5:

A couple of questions for you Matt.

How long have you been dosing the current amount and type of trace elements ?

If you're changing the light variable wouldn't you expect the corals need for trace elements to change ?

Is a change in color the only change you're expecting in your RP ?
 
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