Mhucasey's SPS obsession

[mhucasey]

Yes, its a bummer about the Potter's. I've had Leopards of other varieties before but I'm 0-2 for Potters. I may see if my favorite LFS can get one in special for me and hod him to make sure he is eating and good.

Although, to be clear, this little guy was eating like a piglet, so it didn't starve to death...

 

[Wazzel]

I saw something about this on Marks thread, and its very interesting to consider:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23937521&postcount=305
The issue is that we may be over-lighting our tanks because of the amazing output of the ATI T5 light fixtures. Its an interesting question I have run into twice recently - first, my biggest LFS was saying that he wasn't as interested in bringing in Acros from Australia any more because the tanks they were going into were over-lit. He said they needed way less light to keep their color.

Second, I started going to another LFS that uses all 8 bulb Ati LED power modules. They only run 6 bulbs in the fixtures, 5 blue and one purple, and only the Royal blue LEDs. The fixtures are about 2 feet off the water for shallow ~14-16 inch deep coral show tanks. The corals are doing well. This owner said bringing them any lower caused issues. To me they looked way too high, over a couple of tanks they were closer to 3 feet above the water. The corals looked good though - and no one wants to kill their corals with too little light when they have it available.

On the initial tank of the pair of tanks that I have now, I had very good success with 8 bulbs about 6-7 inches off the water in a 22inch tall tank. I measured par at the dead center of the tank and saw values about 450 or so. I would drop the light lower and sometimes see faster growth, but often worse color in some corals. Specifically, the Stuber Acro looked amazing with light green body and vibrant blue tips near the bottom front of the tank, but a frag of the same coral near the top turned brownish green and the blue almost went away. On that tank I ran a more white mixture with at least one purple bulb.

Also, on that tank, Red planet that was getting 425 PAR was nicely red but lots of green along the base was visible.

I've been seeing more success on my shallow SPS reef with the lights higher up than lower down. I have also seen better results with more blue and less white. I have also noticed that the majority of the stuber acro in the tank has been struggling and brown. The red planet which was green and red in the old tank is solid reddish pink in this one, even though its directly below the edge of a fixture. Many corals are green rather than the colors they should be. Several weeks ago I raised the light from 7 to 8 1/2 inches off the water, and more or less settled on a mix with all blue bulbs but the center two, which are a Fiji purple and an ABS. I saw color improvement in several colonies over the last few weeks, of course there were improvements in other areas too, so it may have been coincidence.

I have decided to raise the light fixtures even more, to just over 10 inches above the water. Ill give this height a week or two to see if there is further improvement. I need to rent the Par meter again and see what 12 bulbs are putting out.

On the 8 bulb fixture, i took a series of readings dead center(i.e. 9inches below water line, center of fixture), and got the following par values for these heights above the water:
4" - 550
5" - 515
6" - 475
7" - 450
8" - 430
10" - 390

So the location for most of the corals in the shallow SPS reef is 4-9" below the water line. The two 6 bulb fixtures are close enough together to act as a 12 bulb fixture.

In comparison, that means when the fixtures are 6"AWL, they are 10-15 inches from the corals. Extrapolating from the 8-bulb fixture, assuming identical output, I may be hitting the upper corals with PAR exceeding 550um. At the lower end maybe 475.

Raising the fixtures to 10" brings the projected numbers down a bit to 515-390. Ill be curious what the tank actually maps out to and how the corals respond....

Interesting. Have you considered (and can you) running some of the bulbs in each fixture for long duration and the rest for a sort duration? Kind of the approach MH/t-5 users take with running the actinic for long duration and the MH for short duration. It is also kind of the approach I have with my LEDs, long ramps with a short period of high intensity in between them.

 

[mhucasey]

Interesting. Have you considered (and can you) running some of the bulbs in each fixture for long duration and the rest for a sort duration? Kind of the approach MH/t-5 users take with running the actinic for long duration and the MH for short duration. It is also kind of the approach I have with my LEDs, long ramps with a short period of high intensity in between them.

I do that now, with 4 blue bulbs running for 11.5 hours, and the additional 8 bulbs on for 6.5 hours. I may go to less than 6.5 hours but I also like to look at the tank in full spectrum, so I'm in a bit of a pickle. I can raise the lights more as another option. I plan on doing that an inch a week until the Red Planet shows some green between the branches...

 

[Reefvet]

For my eyes the GABA provides the yellow light some acros need but has much better color rendition than the greenish ABS.

This is the part that's most interesting to me. You all discuss the color of these lights with the assumption that it looks the same to each of you. In fact, that's probably not the case.

Then there's the fact that as the bulbs age, ballasts generate heat and fluctuate in power delivered and the line voltage varies +/- 10 degrees on the grid the T5 phosphors deliver widely varying color.

30+ years in aquaculture research has taught me one thing for sure. Color perception is highly subjective.

Oh and the PAR/PUR levels. I measured PAR of 1950 in Darwin's reserve over large expanses of acros that were exposed at low tide. They had wonderful colors.

Don't you just hate science. It so contradicts human conjecture.

 

[biggles]

I know exactly where you're coming from Reefvet, some of the crazy ideas these guys pull out of thin air and suddenly treat as fact is ridiculous mate.

Most of these guys wouldn't even know what a science molecule looked like let alone how to dose the stuff......:reading:

 

[Wazzel]

This is the part that's most interesting to me. You all discuss the color of these lights with the assumption that it looks the same to each of you. In fact, that's probably not the case.

Then there's the fact that as the bulbs age, ballasts generate heat and fluctuate in power delivered and the line voltage varies +/- 10 degrees on the grid the T5 phosphors deliver widely varying color.

30+ years in aquaculture research has taught me one thing for sure. Color perception is highly subjective.

Oh and the PAR/PUR levels. I measured PAR of 1950 in Darwin's reserve over large expanses of acros that were exposed at low tide. They had wonderful colors.

Don't you just hate science. It so contradicts human conjecture.

Science is cool, but everything in nature does not directly translate to our water boxes. The open reef and an aquarium are totally different systems. As reef keepers we need to keep that in mind.

 

[Wazzel]

I know exactly where you're coming from Reefvet, some of the crazy ideas these guys pull out of thin air and suddenly treat as fact is ridiculous mate.

Most of these guys wouldn't even know what a science molecule looked like let alone how to dose the stuff......:reading:

Tell false information long enough with enough conviction and people will believe it, no matter how stupid it sounds.

 

[markalot]

The threads are so fun to read though. I'm more interested in reef keepers who tried things, not duplicating nature.

 

[Reefvet]

Most of these guys wouldn't even know what a science molecule looked like let alone how to dose the stuff......:reading:

We all thank the day you joined the forum and started enlightening us Andrew :idea:

Science is cool, but everything in nature does not directly translate to our water boxes. The open reef and an aquarium are totally different systems. As reef keepers we need to keep that in mind.

Absolutely. That's exactly my point.

IF you're going to start referencing PAR then you have to keep it in context. The values in a reef tank are subject to many other variables.

The threads are so fun to read though. I'm more interested in reef keepers who tried things, not duplicating nature.

You can't duplicate nature. Ain't that a B!tch.

But we do come very close and that is what's fun about these threads.

 

[Reefvet]

Maybe a better post would have been...

Do you guys do realize that you don't see blue, or any colors for that matter, the same way ?

 

[markalot]

Maybe a better post would have been...

Do you guys do realize that you don't see blue, or any colors for that matter, the same way ?

Doesn't matter, we are trained to basically interpret it the same way. Only if you could actually look through my eyes would you see a difference.

The ABS bulb is butt ugly, scientific fact! :rollface:

 

[mhucasey]

This is the part that's most interesting to me. You all discuss the color of these lights with the assumption that it looks the same to each of you. In fact, that's probably not the case.

Then there's the fact that as the bulbs age, ballasts generate heat and fluctuate in power delivered and the line voltage varies +/- 10 degrees on the grid the T5 phosphors deliver widely varying color.

30+ years in aquaculture research has taught me one thing for sure. Color perception is highly subjective.

Oh and the PAR/PUR levels. I measured PAR of 1950 in Darwin's reserve over large expanses of acros that were exposed at low tide. They had wonderful colors.

Don't you just hate science. It so contradicts human conjecture.

ReefVet, perhaps we got off on the wrong foot at some point in the past, I don't know. As a Physiology and Neuroscience Major and someone who works in the Biotech Industry, I am very interested in science. Unfortunately the hobby we share is not conducive to real scientific truths. There are just too many variables. At the very least, having a lot of anecdote to read through can be a start.

As for the Bulbs, the two that we were talking about have significantly different spectral curves, but even so, lighting is indeed subjective. There are some broad details that we can glean from some of the bulbs. In some case, knowing what someone is looking for from their own perspective and with their preferences can lead to valuable suggestion. I try to keep my observations equipped with clarifiers like "in my opinion, but I like a whiter look". As I stated pretty recently it seems that I have seen amazing tanks with colorful Acroporas with just about every mix of bulbs so its really only about what the person prefers. I cringe when someone says "Ill get the exact bulb mix you recommend" because if they hate it I'll feel responsible.

Regarding the issue of over-lighting, you threw out the statement of seeing PAR of 1900 on an actual reef with colorful corals as though that was all that there was to say about the subject. I have heard similar things about trying to duplicate shallow water reef environment lighting and how the lights that we have can never achieve the same levels. I've seen studies that compare different types of light and studies that compare different levels of PAR for corals. I can point to major flaws in many of these studies that very well may invalidate each one.

In shallow water, for example, the corals that thrive are dominated by golden brown specimens, bright pink and green Pocilloporas, and some blue tipped corals. Darwin's Reserve, for example, doesn't even have these- only two varieties of Acropora are present in atlantic/Carribean reefs. Many of the corals seen in the shallows of Pacific reefs are not the types that we are collecting. In addition, peak PAR values on the reef are maintained for short periods of time and the angle of incidence of the sun is changing throughout the day. In short, comparing the shallow reef to the tanks we keep is difficult to do. An interesting concept I saw in one article was a cumulative PAR value - this would help with comparison between relatively steady tank PAR and the wildly varying par in the ocean.

For the corals that we are collecting, we do know that the mariculture industry grows them in the shallows and then conditions them at deep enough water depths where they essentially only get violet, blue, and green light. There the colors intensify. If they grew fast at that depth the mariculture industry would just keep them there the whole time. Taking a lesson from that, the idea is to give them enough light energy to get them to grow, but a blue enough spectrum to get them to produce intense colors. With the ATI fixtures the bulbs produce a lot of light, so much so that the corals may be shifting from producing pigments and growing to just growing. In some cases, perhaps the amount of light is so much that the Zooxanthellae poison the coral with hydrogen peroxide. Its worth trying different levels of light and different levels of Blue light to find the sweet spot.

I will do my best to change as few variables as possible to see if I can find this. Its not science, but its all we have

 

[mhucasey]

I know exactly where you're coming from Reefvet, some of the crazy ideas these guys pull out of thin air and suddenly treat as fact is ridiculous mate.

Most of these guys wouldn't even know what a science molecule looked like let alone how to dose the stuff......:reading:

Biggles, idiot savants of reef keeping like you don't need no science!

:spin2:

 

[mhucasey]

Doesn't matter, we are trained to basically interpret it the same way. Only if you could actually look through my eyes would you see a difference.

The ABS bulb is butt ugly, scientific fact! :rollface:

 

[reefmutt]

Matt, or anybody else who may have an opinion, how do you think these over lighting concepts compare to mh?
Do you think t5 par is equal to mh par?
Do you think it is as easy to over light using mh as it apparently is with t5?

 

[mhucasey]

Matt, or anybody else who may have an opinion, how do you think these over lighting concepts compare to mh?
Do you think t5 par is equal to mh par?
Do you think it is as easy to over light using mh as it apparently is with t5?

Based on normal coverage for MH with reflectors, I have seen a lot of evidence that the MHs put out a lot less PAR than people imagine. Unless you crowd the tank with more bulbs than the reflectors are designed for, I think its harder to over-light a tank in the way we are talking about.

For one thing, the bulbs have to be off the water far enough to prevent heat transfer, and the largest source of light is still directly from the bulb, so its more of a point source light even though the reflectors do a great job of spreading out the light. With point source lights, par readings can be very high near the top then quickly decline as you move away from the source.

In comparison, under the 8-bulb ATI sun power with 3-foot bulbs(known as the worst performers out of the various lengths), 6 1/2 inches above the water, I measured par at 700 just below the water and 330 on the sand. That is very high compared to Metal halide PAR maps posted here. Par readings throughout the tank, even the very front and sides, were surprisingly similar.

Here was my map, notice how slowly the PAR declines as you go lower in the tank:

[/IMG]
Front of tank against glass:

And here Are a few Metal halide maps:
2 400w SE XM 20k on lumatek select a watt at 400w setting. 6 days old, 11" from water 4 t-5 80w ~ 2 weeks old. 10k, coral+, Blue+, and purple+

Various Reeflux Bulbs:

 

[Reefvet]

ReefVet, perhaps we got off on the wrong foot at some point in the past, I don't know.

I don't think so but if my post was somehow offensive, then by all means my apologies.

.... I try to keep my observations equipped with clarifiers like "in my opinion, but I like a whiter look".

That's the qualifying statement I didn't see and really what I was responding to. I was trying to offer an informative link on the subjective nature of color perception and the inherent risk in quantifying light, PAR without other conditions considered.

Regarding the issue of over-lighting, you threw out the statement of seeing PAR of 1900 on an actual reef with colorful corals as though that was all that there was to say about the subject.

Again, not the point I intended. Just that simple PAR numbers don't tell the entire story. Turbidity, angle of incidence, surface interruption/reflectivity, to list just a few variables, all contribute dynamic factors.

I disagree that we can't use scientific methods in our small ecosystems. The problem is few have access to the tools needed.

 

[mhucasey]

I don't think so but if my post was somehow offensive, then by all means my apologies.

Ok good, I rather like hearing what you can add to the discussion with your years of experience and chosen profession.

That's the qualifying statement I didn't see and really what I was responding to. I was trying to offer an informative link on the subjective nature of color perception and the inherent risk in quantifying light, PAR without other conditions considered.

I'm a strange one and if you've read through my T5 posts you will see I have a little T5 light bulb addiction. I have probably 40+ bulbs of all different types. I try new combos often, and many times I put together combos to match someones setup here to compare it to what Im running. Since our color memory is crap(scientific term Biggles) I change the bulbs out while they are hot to minimize the time between combinations.

I used to obsess about the exact right bulbs to get the corals happy. And now - I'm a little less obsessed since I concluded that its just up to my preference. I use the spectrums to figure out which bulb will fit the bill here and there.

Again, not the point I intended. Just that simple PAR numbers don't tell the entire story. Turbidity, angle of incidence, surface interruption/reflectivity, to list just a few variables, all contribute dynamic factors.

I totally agree, measurement of PAR has caused just as many problems as it has solved. As a gross measurement its at least a starting point - but we have to be careful as 400um of all blue bulbs is different than 400um of purple bulbs or white LEDs.

I disagree that we can't use scientific methods in our small ecosystems. The problem is few have access to the tools needed.

On this one I was unclear. I think that scientific methods are applicable, just that they are probably flawed because of all the variables in a reef system. A heavy dose of skepticism is needed but we shouldn't dismiss things out of hand.

For example, if i make a change to something, and a week later a coral starts responding with growth, was it because of the change? It could be because the coral finally acclimated to the system, or some nutrient threshold was reached because of a buildup or removal of detritus, or any number of things. To solidify the proof, we need to reverse the change and see if the response stops. The problem is, no one wants to do this- if its working leave it alone!

I don't know if you have seen the latest from BRS's "TV" channel, but they got a sweet custom made system by Vertex that allows them to run side by side comparisons of products or lights. I may even try my own side by side comparison in the future since i have two light units and a wide tank - maybe try two frags of the same coral under different light combinations or intensities.
The right scientifically based studies will hopefully be performed one day, it would be great to know just what we need to do to keep these colored sticks alive!

 

[sahin]

Tanks are looking great man. Love the pod show too :beer:

 

[markalot]

It's a shame if everyone always has to put "in my opinion" in front of every post.

So since lowering the PAR on my tank my corals have started to show colors I had not yet seen. This is a statement of fact based on a timeline, but does not imply that lowering the PAR colored up my corals. Most of us can handle nuance without having to explain it every time.

Conjecture:

T5's are beasts when it comes to the amount of light that hits a coral. My 60" bulbs put out an ungodly amount of PAR and as you get lower in the tank the PAR drops more slowly, probably because the sensor is getting hit with light from not only more bulbs but the entire length of the bulbs. This is probably why longer lengths seem to be more efficient.

If we take some of the recent articles about light and photoinhibition in corals it might be accurate to surmise that a T5 lit tank, bathing a coral on all sides with light, can actually do better at a lower PAR.

Or not.

I've seen a few examples now of people getting better results after lowering PAR so I think it's worth a try. It's not science, it's ok, it's a hobby.