Mike's 300 Double-D

[prop-frags]

Mike -
If you are thinking of beefing up the structural rigidity for your tank, you might want to look at acquiring some "LVL" material from a lumber yard. They often have some which are left overs, or damaged on one end that you can buy cheap. LVL is "Linear Veneer Lumber. It is incredibly strong, and dense.

"Laminated" Veneer Lumber. Basically it is oriented wood strands in resins. Super strong. Sorry to be anal.

Thanks Tee. I looked it up - looks like Dave was right - only reference we can find is "laminated veneer" like this Microlam or GP lam. There's a lumber yard in Richmond that sells it. We'll take a look for some pricing and suitability.

Hi Mike, Sorry to hear of the sad situation you have with the leaking tank. What a mess water can make in a house. But the good news is it looks like you will be back better than before. But again, I thought what you had was nice before. Glad you have so many locally that can help.

Thanks Doug. Yes, there is a silver lining here, and we are trying hard to focus on that!

corals are still looking good in the 350... hope they continue to thrive even through all the changes.

Thanks Chris. The big green slimer is still suffering from STN...Not sure if it is going to make it or not. A few other losses have happened - the new red Setosa perished, along with a couple of the more fragile acros. All in all, we're feeling pretty lucky about the small number of livestock losses.
___________________________

OK, here's an update on the renovations and rebuilding efforts.

The work in the house continues. The sub flooring is drying out. We've got two dehumidifiers in the house with several fans targeting the areas that got the most water. There is also a dehumidifier and several fans underneath the house to pull out all the moisture from under there.

We are going to remodel the laundry room to make room for the display tank electronics. The idea is to move all the electrical outlets, lighting ballasts, timers, Tunze controllers, etc., into the laundry room directly behind the tank, and well out of the way of any potential future splashes, leaks, or spills. More on that later as that work progresses.

The other big project this weekend was doing the structural improvements under the house. We didn't have any real indications that the floor had deflected or contributed to the tank failure, but now we are paranoid and are going to take many more steps to increase safety.

Thanks to Paul for these incredibly informative links (must read for anyone with large tanks in wood frame houses):

Residential Wood Framed Floors and Aquarium Weights

Raising A Slightly Sagging Floor

The location of our tank and stand is optimal for using the existing structure of the house to support the load. The wall that the stand is up against is directly over a main support girder of the house, and the stand is perpendicular to the 2x10 floor joists, crossing at least 6 joists. Nevertheless, some engineering friends have chimed in and recommended that we add some additional structure anyway.

So off to Lowe's and grab the materials - we're going to add a new 4x6 support beam, held up with two 36" screw jacks and concrete pilings. We will also add 2x8 pine blocks in-between the joists to minimize torsional buckling of the joists. Some steel anchor straps and some misc anodized lag screws round out the order:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047812413/" title="crawlspace 01 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5047812413_cedb3e350a.jpg" width="500" height="332" alt="crawlspace 01" /></a>

OK, carry all this heavy crap under the house (GRUNT) - that's more than a workout! The first thing to do is locate precisely where the stand and tank are going to sit over the floor joists. Measure it up, and mark it. The important thing for our application is to add additional support (beam) under the joists that are carrying the load of the tank and stand. We'll come out about 3 feet from the wall where that big girder is, and put our new beam there. Once we've marked where the beam will go, we fashioned some steel anchor straps and hang the beam up there in place:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5048433598/" title="crawlspace 02 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5048433598_1b2db9ca24.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 02" /></a>

Next, we do a little test placement of the concrete pilings and screwjacks to find out where our holes for the pilings will be. Then we dig the holes (with a thimble, since we can't use a shovel under there):

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047812911/" title="crawlspace 03 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5047812911_7de3360438.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 03" /></a>

Place the concrete pilings and make sure they are level.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5048434320/" title="crawlspace 05 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5048434320_5c742a0635.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 05" /></a>

Next, we can put the screw jacks on the concrete pilings and line them up. It is absolutely critical that the jacks are plumb!!

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5048434806/" title="crawlspace 07 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5048434806_44e0a4a094.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 07" /></a>

Now that the jacks are level and plumb, we can take loose our temporary anchor straps, and lift the beam up into position:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047813125/" title="crawlspace 06 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5047813125_943810fe81.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 06" /></a>

Now that some force has been applied to the jacks, we let that sit a while and go back to ensure everything is still level and plumb. Once we're happy with that, we fill the holes in around the pilings and compact the soil down nice and tight:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047813481/" title="crawlspace 08 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5047813481_878e19b4aa.jpg" width="500" height="336" alt="crawlspace 08" /></a>

This is starting to look like we're getting close to being done! Next up is to use the lag screws and fasten the jack plates to the beam:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047813983/" title="crawlspace 09 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5047813983_7997f50bf6.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 09" /></a>

And here's a shot showing the beam elevated into position on both screw jacks:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047814363/" title="crawlspace 10 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5047814363_6ed06de92d.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 10" /></a>

The final step was to install the 2x8 blocks between some of the joists. This helps with spreading load between the joints, and also reduces their ability to twist:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5047814627/" title="crawlspace 11 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5047814627_840844b0ab.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="crawlspace 11" /></a>

And there we have another gazillion pounds of load-bearing capacity or "safety factor" as the engineers like to say!!

 

[teesquare]

Sorry for my adding confusion of the vernacular mistake Dave and Mike - glad you looked up Glulam, I should have included that in my attempt to explain what I meant...Good job!

T

 

[reefkeeps]

Lvl is strong until it gets wet, nothing rots faster! I would wrap it if you have any concerns of it getting wet!

 

[teesquare]

I don't believe you are thinking about the same beam material we are talking about. These are purpose built for structural support. Using waterproof glues. Design to hold roofs anf loor up for the life of the house.

They do not rot when they get wet any more than does pressure treated lumber.

T

 

[dave.m]

teesquare is correct. Oriented strand board (OSB) will fall apart when it gets wet. Laminated veneer lumber (LVL) will not.

Dave.M

 

[teesquare]

Thanks Dave - I had confused the issue before, and was hoping that this time I said it correctly:wave:

T

 

[dave.m]

No worries. If I had a dollar for every time I got things wrong ...

Dave.M

 

[jcovercash]

I had been following your thread. I planned on getting a 300dd from marineland also..... Not so sure I want to now. Although yours is the first failure of them I have read about still not happy with how quickly you had a problem happen especially since the tank line has not been out that long....

When you get it all back togather will you be going with the sane tank?

I planned on bracing my floor identically to yours how you have it now!


Looking forward to the rebuild however a I'm sure it will be as great a before!

 

[reefkeeps]

The second floor of my house was on no less than 10 jacks for months as they replaced all of my LVL beams. The rot was so bad I could put my hands through it.

If you are comparing them to OSB then sure, but let's face it particle board is exactly raising the bar...

http://www.coastalcontractor.net/article/217.html

The last paragraph speaks to the same experience I have had, mine however I'm sure was more costly...

 

[teesquare]

reefkeeps-

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I think that, just like every other aspect of construction, there are materials which are suitable for a given use in one region of the country, but - not in another. Moisture, and moisture measured as relative humidity may be ( in this case) the key. Relative humidity is "relative" to temperature and this key in determining dewpoint.

Additionally - from the pictures in the link, it apprears that the discussion is keying in on the use of a product that I have not ever ( nor would I reccomend) used. It does appear to be little more than particle board.

The LVL beam that I am familiar with are not made this way, and are holding up houses in this area ( which has very similar weather to where Mike is) and have been doing so for several years. But - they are not eposed to the salt laden sea ir as in the article either...But it is a good article - and I think I will go make some "inspections for safety sake!:thumbsup:

One thing I would be curious about your situation reefkeeps: Do you have a hygrometer in your house for tracking humidity? I am curious about whether the moisture/salt air may be the issue with the product you had problems with ?

In any case - it does seem a plus to use pressure treated per the linked artcicle. Good input!
T

 

[prop-frags]

I had been following your thread. I planned on getting a 300dd from marineland also..... Not so sure I want to now. Although yours is the first failure of them I have read about still not happy with how quickly you had a problem happen especially since the tank line has not been out that long.... When you get it all back togather will you be going with the sane tank? I planned on bracing my floor identically to yours how you have it now! Looking forward to the rebuild however a I'm sure it will be as great a before!

We've been getting a lot of that lately. No one wants to see a brand new tank bust a bottom seal...and worse is not being able to conduct a failure analysis to know for sure the root cause. We have been getting lots of great advice from people all around the US and abroad...it is much appreciated and please keep the messages coming. Not surprisingly, many who experience problems such as ours are hesitant to post in public about their issues. We know that tanks fail - no system is perfect. Manufacturing defects happen, poor choices in installation happen, etc.

As we've said, we have the rare opportunity to make our setup better and safer. Improving the structure of the house, the stand, and the tank are how we are dealing with this. Yes, we've chosen to go with another 300DD. Per the great advice we're getting from you guys, we're adding some bottom eurobracing to the tank - it seems like the logical thing to do.

The second floor of my house was on no less than 10 jacks for months as they replaced all of my LVL beams. The rot was so bad I could put my hands through it. If you are comparing them to OSB then sure, but let's face it particle board is exactly raising the bar...

http://www.coastalcontractor.net/article/217.html

The last paragraph speaks to the same experience I have had, mine however I'm sure was more costly...

reefkeeps-

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I think that, just like every other aspect of construction, there are materials which are suitable for a given use in one region of the country, but - not in another. Moisture, and moisture measured as relative humidity may be ( in this case) the key. Relative humidity is "relative" to temperature and this key in determining dewpoint.

Additionally - from the pictures in the link, it apprears that the discussion is keying in on the use of a product that I have not ever ( nor would I reccomend) used. It does appear to be little more than particle board.

The LVL beam that I am familiar with are not made this way, and are holding up houses in this area ( which has very similar weather to where Mike is) and have been doing so for several years. But - they are not eposed to the salt laden sea ir as in the article either...But it is a good article - and I think I will go make some "inspections for safety sake!:thumbsup:

One thing I would be curious about your situation reefkeeps: Do you have a hygrometer in your house for tracking humidity? I am curious about whether the moisture/salt air may be the issue with the product you had problems with ?

In any case - it does seem a plus to use pressure treated per the linked artcicle. Good input!
T

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that link. 15 years of exposure to coastal extremes speaks highly of the PT laminated products. This is another reason why I love this forum so much. Knowledge is power!

Our frag/refugium tank is small (75g) but sitting in the fish room with very high humidity and subject to some frequent splashes and spills. We opted to use PT 4x4s for its construction and it is holding up great. The 125g sump has a new 2x4 stand (multiple coats of poly), but we probably should have used PT 2x4s for the same reason.

Question for you guys on this topic. Many folks use a sheet of plywood on their stand to even out load (I assume) and increase safety of having a flat surface for all load points on the tank. If well-coated with paint or poly, do you think there is a concern of delamination of the plywood?

Thanks

 

[slattery]

going to be great

 

[Taqpol]

Did Marineland ever do anything about your old tank?

 

[crvz]

Per the great advice we're getting from you guys, we're adding some bottom eurobracing to the tank - it seems like the logical thing to do.

was that posted somewhere in this thread? I may have missed it, but if not could you elaborate?

 

[teesquare]

Many folks use a sheet of plywood on their stand to even out load (I assume) and increase safety of having a flat surface for all load points on the tank. If well-coated with paint or poly, do you think there is a concern of delamination of the plywood?

Mike - I think you will be fine. I prefer the use of Advantech for the tanks stand platform ( http://www.huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagename=advantechsheathing ) It is flat, very dense, and much more rigid than plywood. The manufacturer gives it a 50 year warranty against deterioration as a subfloor material. So - I choose it because of it's extreme "weatherablity", as well as the other reasons listed above.
Hope this helps, and my best to the Mrs.!
T

 

[jcovercash]

was that posted somewhere in this thread? I may have missed it, but if not could you elaborate?

Ditto!

 

[prop-frags]

going to be great

Thansk slattery - we're trying to make lemonade with our lemons!

Did Marineland ever do anything about your old tank?

Alex, we are working through our LFS. They are replacing the tank at no cost. This is one of the reasons we chose to give our business to Fishworld - they stand behind their work.

was that posted somewhere in this thread? I may have missed it, but if not could you elaborate?

Chris, after much research and good advice, we decided that bottom eurobracing done at the factory will improve the safety of the tank. Teesquare and others have had this custom option installed in their tanks and to us it is a necessary feature to have. Take a look at Tee's thread for a great picture of the factory bottom eurobracing.

Mike - I think you will be fine. I prefer the use of Advantech for the tanks stand platform ( http://www.huberwood.com/main.aspx?pagename=advantechsheathing ) It is flat, very dense, and much more rigid than plywood. The manufacturer gives it a 50 year warranty against deterioration as a subfloor material. So - I choose it because of it's extreme "weatherablity", as well as the other reasons listed above.
Hope this helps, and my best to the Mrs.! T

Thanks Tee! Terry says hi and can't wait for some of that Carolina BBQ :bigeyes: We've drawn up some requirements for our stand mods and the sheathing suggestion is right on time. We'll keep you guys posted on what we wind up doing.

 

[rick s]

Do we have new hardwood floors yet?

 

[Reef Happy]

Mike, glad to see you moving ahead to make setup nicer and better than before. I just hate to see these kinds of tragedies happen. Be nice to see water soon in another 300DD.

 

[prop-frags]

Do we have new hardwood floors yet?

Hi Rick! Yes - we have new floors! Wow was it a lot of effort. We had to empty out three rooms plus the downstairs bathroom, tear out the wet/ruined hardwood, then removed about 300 sq ft of wet insulation. Next was 4 weeks of dehumidify and dry out the subfloors within the house and in the crawlspace. Finally, once the subfloors were measuring sufficiently low moisture, we were ready for the new flooring to go back in. Last weekend, we sprayed Microban on all the crawlspace, joists, and subflooring that had gotten soaked with salt water. This weekend, we replaced all the insulation under the house that had gotten soaked.

Mike, glad to see you moving ahead to make setup nicer and better than before. I just hate to see these kinds of tragedies happen. Be nice to see water soon in another 300DD.

Thanks Doug - we really appreciate all the help and advice you've given us - and putting up with those long phone calls LoL! We're determined to get back in business here.

:fish2:

Speaking of getting back in business, there's been a TON of activity and repairs going on. In addition to all the flooring and crawlspace action, we have built a new stand. We thought you guys might like to see the new stand design, and give us any feedback that you have. As you can see, we really beefed it up - double 2x6 beams around the top, vertical supports in the middle of the front/rear spans, and bigger corner supports. Here are the pics: