Mineral mud/Miracle Mud

LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!
I can't hear you!
LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!

:lol:

v10king, there is no need to be snotty about it.
Can you prove that the mud made a difference in your system?
I have the Walt Smith Fiji Mud in my refugium but i'll be darned if I could say it's doing anything beneficial because I didn't run the fuge without it. Not bashing you in any way, just trying to stay unbiased and truthful.
 
Well I can see how that would be a positive reinforcement for you.
But one can't help but wonder what other factors may be at play since it's an entirely different tank.
It would be more convincing for others if you or I pulled the mud from our systems and watched for any noticeable changes, but there is no way i'm going through the trouble of doing that, even to satisfy my own curiosity! LOL.
 
I been using it for a year and a half, I did notice amazing polyps extension on my corals.
It has worked for me and will continue using it.
 
I am curious what in the mud would cause polyp extension, which are designed for capturing prey.
 
:lol:

As I stated in my last post. Artificial salt water already has those things they list as why the stuff is supposed to be good for your reef.

Please explain why we need more of those elements when we are already well above natural levels?

It's a shame that people credit this snake oil as making their tanks healthier because it discredits what they are actually doing that IS making the difference.
 
tkeracer619 said:
:lol:

As I stated in my last post. Artificial salt water already has those things they list as why the stuff is supposed to be good for your reef.

Please explain why we need more of those elements when we are already well above natural levels?

It's a shame that people credit this snake oil as making their tanks healthier because it discredits what they are actually doing that IS making the difference.
Click to expand...

I hear ya, and I'm with ya.
The main reason i got the Fiji Mud was that it wasn't "Miracle" Mud :lol: and I wanted that ultra ultra fine mud base for my refugium which was going to be based around mangroves and the mud is easier to plant things in.
 
I use mud straight from the bay where the mangroves grow it's on top of my Sandler well about half of it and it's seeming to help I noticed the corals opening more after use I only have it in for a a couple weeks. One thing for sure is it hasn't caused a problem. You can assume it works. I plan to use a half sand half mud refugium on my new build as well as mangroves plants cheato halimeda. I also added a protein skimmer recently. It says not use a protein skimmer but as I have access to mud year round I can always remove and add.

Added directly to my refugium and no cycle or algae spikes
 
As I stated earlier, people that I admire In the hobby use this product exclusively. The list is large and noteworthy. The most recent updates to the product have included the use of a skimmer for 6 hours or so a day for best results. He referred to it as the ecosystem plus method. More than this is counter-productive as nutrients would have to be artificially replaced. That is why polyp extension is better when using this method. Having artificially elevated levels of minerals in our salt mix does little for the health of the inhabitants. Although the animals do use up these things in relatively steady amounts, it is what these elements support [micro flora and fauna] that produces the healthy specimens we like. That is where having a good bed for these things to live comes into play.
I wonder if the original thread starter has gone with this product or not? Might have missed that one. Or maybe he just got fed up with our bickering?:crazy1:

Daniel. :deadhorse1:
 
If we really want sterile reeftanks where nothing is alive that we don't approve of, why don't we just pave over the jungle and dredge up the reefs? Put in a few potted plants, and see how the ecosystem responds to our meddling. Our tanks need more than just a bare bottom[HEHE], some rock and a piece or two of mechanical filtration.
Are we really so arrogant to think we could design something better than what has already been created.
Dan.
 
Although the animals do use up these things in relatively steady amounts, it is what these elements support [micro flora and fauna] that produces the healthy specimens we like. That is where having a good bed for these things to live comes into play.

Are you saying this only happens because of the MM, that these same processes would not happen in a refugium, a normal sand bed with live rock or in a sump? Are you saying that if people do not use the MM they can expect a sterile tank, poor polyp extensions and unhealthy corals?

There are a lot of us in this hobby who use no mechanical filtration, feed the entire tank with a mixture of food for all of the inhabitants and have nothing resembling a sterile environment and we also do not use MM. Do you really want to suggest that the ecosystem method is the only thing that can give great results and a healthy tank?
 
Something to consider for those who haven't spent the last 30 years in sales, marketing, product development and business management, and just my take on what I see and know about marketing. You do not have to agree or disagree and I won't try to change anyone's mind, you are free to do as you wish in this hobby. My only hope is that the new people in this hobby will do a little research and with enough research be able to separate fact from fiction. It is a tall order.

It is really hard to successfully sell a "method", no repeat customers and easily duplicated by anyone. What is needed is a product to go with the system, a product claimed to be integral to the "system", with a short life span that must be replenished. You sell the "system" and you get yearly repeat business with the "product". The "mud" is your product, it makes your "system" a success, it doesn't matter that in reality the mud is nothing more than garden soil, all you need is for people to believe the mud is what drives the system. You claim it is from deep and remote oceanic regions and full of what is needed to make your tank amazing.

Unfortunately people begin to not believe and have your "product" analyzed and discover it is not from the ocean, not special at all and in fact resembles terrestrial dirt, but definitely not what is claimed by the mfg. How do you combat this?

You try and spin it by including the analysis done on your "product" but leave out the crucial details of no evidence of oceanic origin. You have now spun the damning evidence in a positive light. Time is also your friend here, you know the high turnover in this hobby and most will forget that testing done 10 years ago, so including their analysis and your spin is very effective and helps to get the new people to believe.

All it takes is for people to believe.
 
There is also something called a scathing review.
People tend to eat that stuff up. You review, or analyze something, and write about some big scandalous discovery that reflects badly on the target product. Somebody will always point to that one instance when they read an article that proves whatever their point of view is, and refer to it as fact. It doesn't even need to be based in reality. If it is proven wrong, it doesn't matter since nobody is willing to admit their error. Since it's the internet, no one seems to really care. This seems to be the case with this article you have so adamantly latched onto.
I see more and more experts that will attest to the products quality, and are completely satisfied with the results. I will continue to use and recommend the product, and if asked my opinion, I will point to numerous sources when reviewers, and users, have stated factual information. Not simply spoken badly of things they don't understand, simply to get more people to read it.

BTW. Can you guess what I recently bought 40 pounds of?
Repeat customer here.... Ever heard of "muck diving"? I want to replicate the environment. Supports an enormous diversity of life.
Daniel. :p
 
scubadan206 said:
There is also something called a scathing review.
People tend to eat that stuff up. You review, or analyze something, and write about some big scandalous discovery that reflects badly on the target product. Somebody will always point to that one instance when they read an article that proves whatever their point of view is, and refer to it as fact. It doesn't even need to be based in reality. If it is proven wrong, it doesn't matter since nobody is willing to admit their error. Since it's the internet, no one seems to really care. This seems to be the case with this article you have so adamantly latched onto.
I see more and more experts that will attest to the products quality, and are completely satisfied with the results. I will continue to use and recommend the product, and if asked my opinion, I will point to numerous sources when reviewers, and users, have stated factual information. Not simply spoken badly of things they don't understand, simply to get more people to read it.

BTW. Can you guess what I recently bought 40 pounds of?
Repeat customer here.... Ever heard of "muck diving"? I want to replicate the environment. Supports an enormous diversity of life.
Daniel. :p
Click to expand...

You do realize that you are currently arguing with some true experts, correct?
 
Ouch??
Some people take things way too personal.
Seem to have personal vendettas and need to jump right in and dump all over other people's ideas.
Whatever. Made my point a few times. I'm out.
Not my style anyway. Later guys.
Daniel. :wildone:
 
[flamealert]

There are much better ways to conduct yourselves when disagreeing, without the need to resort to insults.
 
have anyone reach to a conclusion here abut miracle mud vrs sand beds?
was this the topic of this discussion?
it is hard to take a stand on this and make a informed decision when there is no conclusion or proven hypothesis.
One question.
Will live live sand on the fuge provide the same benefit that miracle mud claim to do?
thanks
 
fcatano said:
One question.
Will live live sand on the fuge provide the same benefit that miracle mud claim to do?
thanks
Click to expand...

No, sand will not do what miracle mud CLAIMS it will do.
Will sand do the same thing that miracle mud really does? Probably.
 
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