Minimalistic multichip DIY LED build

Nonsens Why ?

Sincerely Lasse

Because it is silly to address just one aspect of reef lighting in your spectral selection. You can't look at just chl c absorption peaks to the exclusion of the rest of the spectrum. What about chl a, carotene & peridinin photo pigments? What about the spectra that excites fluorescent pigments? Why not address reflective pigments?

If you focus on chl absorption peaks in the blue spectrum, then why not in the red?

Reaching the photosynthetic compensation point is an easy task. You may very well bleach your corals or have them brown out if you deliver too much of a good thing. After all, zooxanthellae are brown or a drab green at best.
 
Because it is silly to address just one aspect of reef lighting in your spectral selection. You can't look at just chl c absorption peaks to the exclusion of the rest of the spectrum. What about chl a, carotene & peridinin photo pigments? What about the spectra that excites fluorescent pigments? Why not address reflective pigments?

If you focus on chl absorption peaks in the blue spectrum, then why not in the red?

Reaching the photosynthetic compensation point is an easy task. You may very well bleach your corals or have them brown out if you deliver too much of a good thing. After all, zooxanthellae are brown or a drab green at best.


You have read my earlier post - you know that I rather many times has send you a list including all of the interesting proteins for photosynthesis.

I do not know if you saw in the article about light, that you mentioned in a earlier post, that they took up a very interesting point of view according to much of light at the photosynthetic wavelengths. They said that corals was able to produce pigment to protect them self from to much of light and for to much of active oxygen radicals (waste from photosynthesis). This pigments is often very colourful and light from the right spectrum provokes many of this beautifully colours. I have seen this from other sources also.

And I think you are wrong when you state that too much light would elicit more zoox, I rather think it will be the opposite. Is needed less zoox to capture a sufficient number of photons if there are many available photons - compared if there are few photons. Remember your own comment about a darkening montipora in a previous post.

However, elevated nutrient levels (phosphorus) along with stronger light can provide more zoox and therefore give browner corals.

My opinion is that it is primarily nutrient levels that control the number of zoox.

Sincerely Lasse
 
It appears that your old (unique) chips were very similar to the dream chip, so there shouldn't be much of a difference other than shimmer and colour mixing.

Are you saying that your monti cap has changed to a darker pigment in less than a week? Corals darken in dimmer light. Is the new light less intense than your outgoing light? Were the optics more narrow?

I thought I had been suggesting that the corals looked slightly different under different lighting. Maybe you thought 4100k was a typo and I meant 14000k? If so, that is not the case. That fixture used a Citizen emitter and was rather nice but the yellow/orange flashes really get to you.

Has it been less than a week? How long ago was it I put this light over the tank, I can't remember and you seem to know based on your comment.
 
I thought I had been suggesting that the corals looked slightly different under different lighting. .

Yes the is true. Different light ratios will make corals look considerably different. If your talking reflected light the more light at a said frequency the more the coral will appear that color. simularly the less light of a certain color the less it will appear that color.

Then for the florescense of the coral this is also true. Certain chemicals floresce at specific activation wave lenghts and emit light at specific frequencies. There have been well over a 100 such chemicals found in corals that floresce. If the coral uses several chemicals to floresce at different wave lenghts in time it will adapt to creat more chemicals at the wave lenght that is available and less at a wavelenght that is not available. In this process the color it appears to floresce at may gradualy change.
 
I thought I had been suggesting that the corals looked slightly different under different lighting. Maybe you thought 4100k was a typo and I meant 14000k? If so, that is not the case. That fixture used a Citizen emitter and was rather nice but the yellow/orange flashes really get to you.

Has it been less than a week? How long ago was it I put this light over the tank, I can't remember and you seem to know based on your comment.


I also understand from your earlier post that you run the chip at a very low level - maybe only low as 25 - 30 W (500 mA/ channel and between 20 - 30 % PWM) now in the beginning. I think it is very wise to do that because the chip is optimized to give just the wavelengths that are active in the photosynthesis.

Sincerely Lasse
 
I also understand from your earlier post that you run the chip at a very low level - maybe only low as 25 - 30 W (500 mA/ channel and between 20 - 30 % PWM) now in the beginning. I think it is very wise to do that because the chip is optimized to give just the wavelengths that are active in the photosynthesis.

Sincerely Lasse

All light that falls between 400-700nm is "active in the photosynthesis". Your dream chip does not generate any light outside of PAR. I think you are trying to infer that the chip will be more blue if it is dimmed, which is true, but corals absorb at least 50% of the light in each wavelength throughout the spectrum.

Since Tom has an existing tank, the key is to match his former light as close as possible to prevent photo-shock. His old light had 4100k white, so it would be best to dim some of the 455nm blue to keep it white until the corals slowly adapt. As Troptrea stated, corals are adaptive.
 
All light that falls between 400-700nm is "active in the photosynthesis". Your dream chip does not generate any light outside of PAR. I think you are trying to infer that the chip will be more blue if it is dimmed, which is true, but corals absorb at least 50% of the light in each wavelength throughout the spectrum.

You realy need to careful on that statement. There are peak fwave lenghts that the photosynthetic chemicals absorb and there are other wave lenghts that are not used by them at all. Different photosynthetic chemicals use different wavelenghts of light.

Where I see the biggest confusion is with some of the florescent chemicals. In nature there purpose is to take the available wave lenght of light and convert it to a wave lenght that the other chemicals in the corals can readily use. These florescent chemicals have been found to be activated by nmany different wave lenght reaching from 420 nm to well over 600nm. But each of these chemicals again are unique and only is activated by one or two specific wave lenghts.

My fear is that so many of us are concentrating on the specific wave lenghts between 420 nm and 460 nm that we are completly ignoring the longer wave lenghts. Yes our corals are adapting to this light change we are giving them. But through several generation of corals will we be changing there chemical proportions where they will no longer have the color we are used to seeing from them.
 
You realy need to careful on that statement. There are peak fwave lenghts that the photosynthetic chemicals absorb and there are other wave lenghts that are not used by them at all. Different photosynthetic chemicals use different wavelenghts of light.

Where I see the biggest confusion is with some of the florescent chemicals. In nature there purpose is to take the available wave lenght of light and convert it to a wave lenght that the other chemicals in the corals can readily use. These florescent chemicals have been found to be activated by nmany different wave lenght reaching from 420 nm to well over 600nm. But each of these chemicals again are unique and only is activated by one or two specific wave lenghts.

My fear is that so many of us are concentrating on the specific wave lenghts between 420 nm and 460 nm that we are completly ignoring the longer wave lenghts. Yes our corals are adapting to this light change we are giving them. But through several generation of corals will we be changing there chemical proportions where they will no longer have the color we are used to seeing from them.



As Sanjay Joshi pointed out to me, the following two graphs show that even the least absorbed wavelengths are still absorbed at a rate of 50%. This illustrates that the corals are utilizing all wavelengths in some way, shape or form.

reflectancespectra-1.jpg


relflectancespectra-2.jpg


Absorption/reflectance curves are valuable, but many people run with those peaks and think that there is no limit to how much of that light a coral can take. Excess blue light can cause corals to heat up as the extra energy is absorbed. This is a major cause of bleaching with new (blue) LED fixtures. The PAR value may be low, yet bleaching still occurs.

This study shows many such absorption peaks that we are all familiar with. They also show the varied photopigments and their significance in each respective coral. It isn't a simple matter of matching an absorption peak of chl a or c, such as ß-carotene, peridinin, neo-paradinin, diadinoxanthin, dinoxanthin, neodinoxanthin, & xanthophyll. Do I completely comprehend all of this? Absolutely not :) and this is why I shrug when people focus on just one buzz word like chl c and it's absorption peak. I get it... peaks are cool and obviously mean something :)

The charts in the study show absorption peaks in the blues (400s) and in the reds (600s), but there are also some in the greens (500s), specifically 582-582, for those who worship peaks:)

http://www.biolbull.org/content/135/1/149.full.pdf

Below is another good paper on the photo-adaptation you have mentioned (TropTrea). They found that corals collected at 9m had a better photosynthetic response to full spectrum light than corals collected at 40m which responded better to blue light. I guess a good question would be which corals were more colourful. At 40m depth the presentation would be poor, but the pigmentation may be great. On the other hand, the corals at shallow depth could just as easily be more colourful and have better reflective colour as well.

I don't know if it is fair to assume that the shallow water corals are living in the "proper/natural" lighting conditions, and the deep water corals are adaptive to the missing spectra of the depths? or are the shallow water corals adaptive to the extra spectra?

There is a reflectivity graph in this study as well, and no wavelengths are entirely reflected, so the full spectrum is used. The deeper water corals have a lower reflective percentage, but they have adapted to absorb whatever they can get in a darker environment.

I really don't think that a few years in a reef tank will devolve corals of this adaptation. With millions of hears of evolution, they can't lose the ability to adapt that quickly. Corals fall off of shallow reefs and fall to deeper depths on a constant basis. They do not however, travel upwards. Perhaps adaptation to blue light comes quicker than adaptation to full spectrum light as a result?

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/213/23/4084.full.pdf
 
For once: I agree with TropTrea but I want to know which wavelengths over 460-470 there you have fluorescence. I have try to find sources for that - but i have not found any major wavelengths. I'm also not sure that your (TropTrea) explanation of why the corals use fluorescence is completely right.

They convert one wavelength to another, usually to one with less energy (longer wavelength), this wavelength they emit so we will see it. This means that the coral does not use this wavelength! But they get extra energy (the difference in energy quanta between incoming photon and outgoing photon) and how they use this energy - I think nobody knows. But it is so common with fluorescence so I have no doubt that it has a biological significance that we do not know today. I have not seen such an explanation anyway.

@ mr.wilson

I'm starting to understand what you are trying to say. Your position is that all wavelengths that are not is reflected is absorbed and has a biological significance. IMO, this is not true. Just because a photon is absorbed, it does not mean that it has a biological significance for zoox (where photosynthesis takes place). The absorbed photon can generate heat instead. There is few surfaces that reflect 100% of incident radiation in the visible wavelengths. By definition: a white surface (read coral) reflects all wavelengths and a black surface absorbs all wavelengths. A black coral (if it existed) would according to your reasoning need all wavelengths. Now, there are some black corals - such Tubastraea diaphana and one in Europe called Tubastraea sp. 01 - and they do not even use photosynthesis!

Further - a red coral, would, according to your reasoning. biological need all wavelengths that not is red - because only the red wavelengths is reflected.

However there can be some other biological active wavelengths that not have with photosynthesis to do. This is one of the reasons why two of the Dream Chips channels are white.

The first link says exactly what I have try to say for a couple of months now. However there is a peak for some of the photosynthetic proteins around 465-475. The dream chip does not have any monochrome LEDs for this peak but both 455 and the blue peaks from the white LEDs contribute with photons in this wavelengths.

The second link is also rather good but some of their graphs are very difficult to understand, but mr.wilson there is a huge difference between your statement

They found that corals collected at 9m had a better photosynthetic response to full spectrum light than corals collected at 40m which responded better to blue light.

and what the authors write in the paper

Here we used Stylophora pistillata colonies collected
from shallow (3
m) and deep (40m) water;

(bold by me)

There is another interesting thing about how much of the red wavelengths that i still left at different depths. Already at 3 meter - 60 % 80 % of the red wavelengths of 650 - 670 nm iradiance has gone away. at 9 meter the 665 nm is completely lost.

And once again - I´m not say that you should only use blue light - I prefer a white light but the most of the photosynthesis take place at wavelengths around 410 - 470 nm and if you want to save energy and put most of your inserted energy there it will do the job best - you do not need so much energy.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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@Troptrea

I found what I was looking for here

It is not a complete list but it shows that there is fluorescent proteins with in the range of 560 - 580 nm

It also give some speculations about their biological role


Sincerely Lasse
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I enjoy this tango they are doing. I feel like I'm learning something :)

Lassee, if blue is needed so much, then why was the ai sol not as good as the radion? The radion is more full spectrum then the ai. Also a lot of early led fixtures had only blue And white. What were they doing wrong?
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I enjoy this tango they are doing. I feel like I'm learning something :)

Lassee, if blue is needed so much, then why was the ai sol not as good as the radion? The radion is more full spectrum then the ai. Also a lot of early led fixtures had only blue And white. What were they doing wrong?

Not really. Just like there are many approaches in lighting a reef with T5 or MH, there are multiple approaches that may work equally well to light a reef with leds. I'm in the camp of having spectrum available across the board. Actual testing and real world usage has been successful over my tanks with it, moreso than just using royal blue/cool white.

With this chip, no one even knows how they will be over time, and we already know this chip is very white and lacks in blue.

It is also a very "one-way" decided upon chip. There were quite a few people interested in other types of "dream chip" layouts, but they were shot down by the few individuals organizing the whole group buy. The whole "buy 50 chips before you even see what they look like" group buy is so laughable of a demand that it steered away other interested people actually looking to move chips like these forward. I'm actually glad RC removed it from here.

I also find it laughable that it is called the "dream chip". It is a pretty narcissistic label for a completely unproven and untested chip, with only one layout being used for testing. Why not just call me "The best DIY led fixture designer of all time" despite me making 1 fixture with limited testing, no long term proof, and varying opinions that think otherwise while we're at it?

All of this makes it hard to take this seriously. What was once something that looked like people coming together to forward this type of build morphed into a select few's opinion and choice.

It would be interesting to see the direction this thread would take, if another LED manufacturer aside from AC-RC made the chip available, or made other types of layouts available too.
 
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...but mr.wilson there is a huge difference between your statement and what the authors write in the paper.
Sincerely Lasse

Sorry, in Canada we use metric and imperial measurement. In my head I converted 3m to roughly 9', then typed 9m by accident.
 
With this chip, no one even knows how they will be over time, and we already know this chip is very white and lacks in blue.

It is also a very "one-way" decided upon chip. There were quite a few people interested in other types of "dream chip" layouts, but they were shot down by the few individuals organizing the whole group buy. The whole "buy 50 chips before you even see what they look like" group buy is so laughable of a demand that it steered away other interested people actually looking to move chips like these forward. I'm actually glad RC removed it from here.

I also find it laughable that it is called the "dream chip". It is a pretty narcissistic label for a completely unproven and untested chip, with only one layout being used for testing. Why not just call me "The best DIY led fixture designer of all time" despite me making 1 fixture with limited testing, no long term proof, and varying opinions that think otherwise while we're at it?

All of this makes it hard to take this seriously. What was once something that looked like people coming together to forward this type of build morphed into a select few's opinion and choice.

It would be interesting to see the direction this thread would take, if another LED manufacturer aside from AC-RC made the chip available, or made other types of layouts available too.

I'm amused at your current take on the design - especially since those opposed to the color selections that were decided on felt that the emitter would be far too blue. I can only imagine if there was a version like some had proposed with two blue, 10k and 6500k and a 660nm channel. The design was selected because it had the most interest, by the way.

"Dream chip" is just a label, man, chill out. Some sort of name was required and this is what has stuck - I don't think whining about how it's not humble enough for you is going to change it.

If you want to set up a different selection of colors, I imagine you could get any selection of colors you want made - I suspect they would simply load different chips in their machine, and whatever phosphor you want for white channels. It was the cost of the custom 5 channel masking, and no doubt setup time on their equipment, that made the order 50 pieces. Who would want to spend possibly hours of downtime on production equipment to run off a small and likely one time order? I know there was a lot of fancy talk earlier about how companies eagerly produce prototypes for free, but that only happens when a business makes a commitment to ordering - not when someone enquires as to the minimum order.
 
... shows that there is fluorescent proteins with in the range of 560 - 580 nm
Sincerely Lasse

In one chart from the study I linked, they show that chl c (light green dinoflagellate called peridinium) has absorption peaks at 582, 583 & 584nm so there is a photosynthetic value to this light.

This study shows that red fluorescent proteins are excited by 559nm light.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC129323/
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I enjoy this tango they are doing. I feel like I'm learning something :)

Lassee, if blue is needed so much, then why was the ai sol not as good as the radion? The radion is more full spectrum then the ai. Also a lot of early led fixtures had only blue And white. What were they doing wrong?

Who said Radion is better than AI?
 
It would be interesting to see the direction this thread would take, if another LED manufacturer aside from AC-RC made the chip available, or made other types of layouts available too.

There are similar multichips available on the market, but they are not shilled and the names are less grandiose.
 
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