Moratorium on "Nitrate Factories"

[sporto0]

people, filters & media do not produce nitrate, they convert nitrites into nitrates, that is not the same as producing them, if your bio load is 2 fish & 10 crabs for example & you removed your bio balls let's say, your nitrates will not be reduced, your live rock will convert the same amount according to the ammonia that is produced from waste by products, if you let a build up of waste occur anywhere, if you did not siphon your tank at all with just a bio filtration live rock, your nitrates would increase the same as a dirty filter pad or dirty bio balls, it's the same thing. why isn't the advice better husbandry given instead of blaming the equiptment? the only difference is live rock has bacteria that allows for an x amount of nitrates to be converted into nitrogen gas. you still have to do water changes & the like. & who besides fraggers & coral farmers don't have live rock already in their tank? how many stories of live rock being so clogged with gunk they start to leach phosphates have you read? the point is saying this or that is a nitrate factory is not really getting to the crux of the problem, it's poor maintenance habits, but everyone would rather blame something else instead.

 

[barjam]

And you remove the opportunity for the skimmer to remove the waste or the critters in the tank to incorporate it into their biomass or to leverage the proximity of the nitrate production to nitrate reduction areas (like Randy points out).

So your argument is basically that if you took two identical setups other than one tank has a canister filter and feed a cube a day to each tank one tank getting the food in the tank and the other tank getting the food put directly into the canister filter to rot both tanks would see the same level of nitrate?

 

[barjam]

And actually there has been many accounts of people with high nitrates making no other change to their system besides removing bioballs and seeing a drop in nitrates.

 

[sporto0]

And you remove the opportunity for the skimmer to remove the waste or the critters in the tank to incorporate it into their biomass or to leverage the proximity of the nitrate production to nitrate reduction areas (like Randy points out).

So your argument is basically that if you took two identical setups other than one tank has a canister filter and feed a cube a day to each tank one tank getting the food in the tank and the other tank getting the food put directly into the canister filter to rot both tanks would see the same level of nitrate?

YES, the nitrate level would be the same, until such time that the canister needed maintenance. you disagree?

 

[Andrew17030]

I think the thinking behind most whom claim these are nitrate factories is first, that when these were mainstream protein skimmers where not as good as they are today. Second, there has been a shift towards biological filtration.

 

[sporto0]

And actually there has been many accounts of people with high nitrates making no other change to their system besides removing bioballs and seeing a drop in nitrates.

now, these accounts, they kept up with maintenance right but they could not figure out why their nitrate level was so high? is that what your saying? because you and I both know thats not really going to be a problem if you do water changes & run a skimmer. Look barjam, you make good points & you come across as a very knowledgeable person & you know I'm not arguing that the hobby hasn't made great advances & I don't propose no change is a good change, but you must admit there are hundreds & hundreds of posts claiming that "this" is your problem, when in reality it may not be the only culprit, usually it is a number of things working in tandem that cause most problems with poor husbandry at the base. btw, i kinda disagree about the skimmer not being able to do it's job because I run 2 on my tank and both skim gunk constantly & honestly I've never had a nitrate problem, phosphates at one time but only because of 5 years of build up in that cursed crushed coral substrate.

 

[MedRed]

I don't use it often, but I completely understand and agree with the idea of "nitrate factory." Anything in or part of the tank that allows for an accumulation of food, waste, and other debris has the potential to become a nitrate factory. Most often, this item, area, or element has to be neglected or not able to be properly maintained to earn it the designation. If it circumvents the skimmer, filter sock, and water changes... it probably has the ability to accumulate the types of things that will breakdown into nitrates.

I choose to remove as many of those elements as possible. I'm even so anal as to replace my filter sock as soon as the water clears after feeding mysis or cycolpeeze. This prevents the food trapped in the sock from breaking down.


P.S. My nitrogen cycle doesn't stop at nitrates

 

[sporto0]

I don't use it often, but I completely understand and agree with the idea of "nitrate factory." Anything in or part of the tank that allows for an accumulation of food, waste, and other debris has the potential to become a nitrate factory. Most often, this item, area, or element has to be neglected or not able to be properly maintained to earn it the designation. If it circumvents the skimmer, filter sock, and water changes... it probably has the ability to accumulate the types of things that will breakdown into nitrates.

I choose to remove as many of those elements as possible. I'm even so anal as to replace my filter sock as soon as the water clears after feeding mysis or cycolpeeze. This prevents the food trapped in the sock from breaking down.


P.S. My nitrogen cycle doesn't stop at nitrates

your point is well received but what you fail to mention is that your live rock can also accumulate & become the dreaded word.

 

[MedRed]

yes... but I'm going to have to deal with that regardless. If I added bioballs to my sump, then I'd have another area in addition to the LR in the tank that will also trap food and what not.

 

[sporto0]

yes... but I'm going to have to deal with that regardless. If I added bioballs to my sump, then I'd have another area in addition to the LR in the tank that will also trap food and what not.

It was never my intention to encourage anyone to add bio balls to an already functioning system & I would never give that kind of advice, my contention is that if you already have that up & running & it's working for you, which it has been for years & years in my case, it's not just going to be all of a sudden "the" problem. & far too many people claim that it is. You are like me when it comes to religious maintenance habits, I actually look forward to saturday's for this very reason. I have never had a serious nitrate problem, but i do maintain my filter media, that would be my advice to people who have them, not to get rid of it because someone else does it that way & Nitrate Factory is just a term that someone felt was clever & it has run rampant. thanks for your post & input on this subject.

 

[sporto0]

I think the thinking behind most whom claim these are nitrate factories is first, that when these were mainstream protein skimmers where not as good as they are today. Second, there has been a shift towards biological filtration.

extremely valid point andrew. & I don't disagree with biological filtration, but I feel mechanical is also an excellent filter type with proper maintenance, my water column is crystal clear & thats not to say that others who don't use them do not have clear tanks but to say not to use them anymore is foolhardy imo. thanks for your input.

 

[sporto0]

Um ok.

I will never use the term nitrate factory in a thread with you again.

I mean after this post of course.

Thank you for your time and good luck with your movement.

& thank you for your sarcasm, it made my night!

 

[barjam]

YES, the nitrate level would be the same, until such time that the canister needed maintenance. you disagree?

I absolutely disagree. The food in the tank has many possible end points from skimmer to biomass to a more easily completed nitrogen cycle. In the canister filter it is a direct reduction to nitrates and a more difficult path to complete the nitrogen cycle.

 

[disc1]

people, filters & media do not produce nitrate, they convert nitrites into nitrates, that is not the same as producing them,

I guess by that logic, those things in detroit aren't car factories, they just convert steel into automobiles, but they don't produce anything.

 

[barjam]

now, these accounts, they kept up with maintenance right but they could not figure out why their nitrate level was so high? is that what your saying? because you and I both know thats not really going to be a problem if you do water changes & run a skimmer. Look barjam, you make good points & you come across as a very knowledgeable person & you know I'm not arguing that the hobby hasn't made great advances & I don't propose no change is a good change, but you must admit there are hundreds & hundreds of posts claiming that "this" is your problem, when in reality it may not be the only culprit, usually it is a number of things working in tandem that cause most problems with poor husbandry at the base. btw, i kinda disagree about the skimmer not being able to do it's job because I run 2 on my tank and both skim gunk constantly & honestly I've never had a nitrate problem, phosphates at one time but only because of 5 years of build up in that cursed crushed coral substrate.

A skimmer can't skim what it can't get to. If you are locking up nutrients in a sock and leave them there to rot the skimmer will not be as effective.

I can absolutely guarantee with 100% certainty that if I add a wet dry back into my system or mechanical filtration (that isn't cleaned every three days) I will have a nitrate issue. I still use a cannister on occasion and if I leave it in the system for a week my nitrates rise.

 

[funkejj]

Last week I did some rock work changes on my tank, As I was doing it I took out every piece of rock that was not on the bottom of the tank and very little shook loose from the rock. The only crap I found in my whole tank was where there was dead spots from no flow hence the reason I redid the rock work. I not have good flow from my tank a week after the changes I took a turkey baster and nothing came loose like times past. My nitrates levels are the lowest they have been in a long time with things not building up. Let talk food, what ever my fish don't eat which isn't much the CUC devours. So you are trying to say that a setup like this is collecting and storing nutrients like a wet/dry with sponges and bio balls do? I see the point you are attempting to make and sure if every one did religious weekly cleaning of those items then you would have a point but 80% or more of people don't they just let things go. Therefore they are a nitrate factory. 99% of the time a person comes on and says I have high nitrates and like you said people here say remove this or that it boils down to they haven't been doing the cleaning and removing the filter media be it the sponges, pads, bio balls, etc. is the smart thing to do because if they haven't been doing it thus far they prolly wont in the future.

 

[MedRed]

It was never my intention to encourage anyone to add bio balls to an already functioning system & I would never give that kind of advice, my contention is that if you already have that up & running & it's working for you, which it has been for years & years in my case, it's not just going to be all of a sudden "the" problem. & far too many people claim that it is. You are like me when it comes to religious maintenance habits, I actually look forward to saturday's for this very reason. I have never had a serious nitrate problem, but i do maintain my filter media, that would be my advice to people who have them, not to get rid of it because someone else does it that way & Nitrate Factory is just a term that someone felt was clever & it has run rampant. thanks for your post & input on this subject.

That was only an example. The point is that I would rather reduce as many points of possible organic matter accumulation as possible so as to not contribute to nitrate production. There are a certain amount you have to deal with as is, why add more? If you can't or don't maintain those areas regularly, they will work against you on keeping your nitrates down.

 

[sporto0]

Last week I did some rock work changes on my tank, As I was doing it I took out every piece of rock that was not on the bottom of the tank and very little shook loose from the rock. The only crap I found in my whole tank was where there was dead spots from no flow hence the reason I redid the rock work. I not have good flow from my tank a week after the changes I took a turkey baster and nothing came loose like times past. My nitrates levels are the lowest they have been in a long time with things not building up. Let talk food, what ever my fish don't eat which isn't much the CUC devours. So you are trying to say that a setup like this is collecting and storing nutrients like a wet/dry with sponges and bio balls do? I see the point you are attempting to make and sure if every one did religious weekly cleaning of those items then you would have a point but 80% or more of people don't they just let things go. Therefore they are a nitrate factory. 99% of the time a person comes on and says I have high nitrates and like you said people here say remove this or that it boils down to they haven't been doing the cleaning and removing the filter media be it the sponges, pads, bio balls, etc. is the smart thing to do because if they haven't been doing it thus far they prolly wont in the future.

no jj, i'm not saying that about collecting waste, but the fact is wet/drys skim the surface, they are not mechanical & very little food ever enters my overflow, most food thats not eaten goes to my cuc as well. & what is collected by my hob filter is very easily cleaned, much easier than blowing off the rocks imo.

 

[disc1]

sportoO. Did you ever think that maybe it works differently for different people? Like maybe the fact that yours doesn't cause nitrates to run away has very little to do with what happens in other people's tanks. Maybe you are the exception and not the rule.

 

[sporto0]

Nitrate problems (higher than normal levels) are caused by over stocking, over feeding & neglect, period, not the equiptment. you folks who run live rock, sump & skimmer only, tell me if you kept everything the same, normal feedings etc. but you stopped doing water changes & regular up-keep for 3 months, that your nitrates would not raise, would not become an issue? I seriously doubt that & you can't convince me otherwise. if you only have 2 small fish in a 55 or larger your never going to have a nitrate problem, so that does not apply here. a filter, no matter what style, does not on it's own, produce nitrates, it requires a load put on it, if that load is excessive, so too will be the nitrates. & the statement "unless i clean it every three days" is over the top & rediculous, not even you believe that, just another attempt to slay my credibility. for shame sir, you insult my intelligence.