Mostly Apogon margaritophorus woes...

mwp

mwp

In Memoriam
I've succumbed to branching out to other forums. I already have 3 duplicate threads going that chronicle our successes/failures with breeding 3 different cardinalfish in the same 24 gallon aquarium. The species we are working with are Apogon margaritophora/margaritophorus (I've seen it both ways, the later appears to be correcT), Apogon leptacanthus, and Pterapogon kaudernii.

To sum it up, we have chronic problems with broods not being held to term. The A. margaritophorus (Lattice Cardinals) have spawned probably 8 times now, all "successful" spawnings that have ultimately failed. The Pterapogon kaudernii are a tank-raised pair and are pretty much just heading into sexual maturity...they've only spawned once. Meanwhile, the Apogon leptacanthus court up a storm but to date we have not had a spawning (at least none we've noticed).

I've posted a TON of information + videos and pictures in the three ongoing threads and that is where I intend to continue posting (3 clones is enough, I'm not about to start a fourth one here). Some threads hold comments, some have not seen any replies.

Reefs.org / Propagation & Captive Breeding Forum
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=78162

Reefs.org / The Captive Breeder's Column
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=78161

Nano-Reef.com / Nano Reefs / Advanced Topics
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72646&st=20&gopid=690298&

Additionally, I started a 4th thread in the Reefs.org General Topics forum which has generated some thoughtful comments:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79320&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I intend to treat this thread in the same manner as the last one linked to above - basically, if anyone has any comments or help, I WELCOME IT! Not sure how long these weekly spawning events can keep up before our female simply wears out her body! I'm definitely going to reply to comments / questions here + I'll notify you guys if I post something to the three above threads.

So, bottom line, PLEASE HELP ME STOP my cardinalfish from EATING EVERY FREAKIN' SPAWN! That's hurdle #1!

MP
 
let me ask an easy question...
what do you mean "eating every spawn" -> how many days out before they don't have a mouthful.
why don't you strip the males when they have eggs
 
Well, the males are literally consuming their spawns at various times. It's especially apparent when the male goes from a bulging buccal cavity to a bulging stomach :)

I noticed your comment (in another thread) that *most* of the Apogons have a more planktonic fry released at 8-10 days post spawn. If this is the case with A. margaritophorus (as I now suspect it is based on the newly-discovered approx. 1/32" egg diameter) then our first breeding may have actually been successful in producing viable fry that just got overlooked- male #1 held for 11 days before going back on food.

I've gone through my records and calculated the length that each brood has been held for the 2 species that have spawned thus far. (some #'s are estimates since time/date of spawning or time of spawn "consumption" is within a window of time when we were out of town).

Apogon margaritophorus
Male #1 - 11 days, <10 minutes, 2 days,
Male #2 - 3 - 6 days, <1 day, 2 days, <10 minutes

Pterapogon kaudernii
Male #1 - <4 days

I think I missed one other spawning in my quick review of my records. Anyway, it looks like the only spawning that could have actually "gone to term" was the first spawning of A. margaritophorus male #1. The rest of the brood periods were ended with males still not eating yet not obviously holding, but definitely FAT bellies!

Diet wise these fish get nothing but the best and get STUFFED with food constantly. Hikari Frozen Mysis & Brine, SF Frozen Brine, Cyclopeze, Enriched Live Baby Brine. As of the last week or so I started further enriching the mysis and frozen brine with a selcon soak (usually 2-3 hours prior to feeding).

With my experience running an African Cichlid hatchery, stripping would be a relatively easy task. Up until this point though, it's been my desire to see IF we could get the males to brood naturally "to term". According to my records it appears that our female A. margaritophrus is now consistently ripening to spawn every 6-7 days or so. So I guess I'll have to watch the tank like a hawk the evening of the 16th and see if I can capture the actual spawning event on "digital" film!

I'm getting to the point where I believe that the males are NOT consuming their broods due to malnutrition, but perhaps out of insecurity from excessive activity either inside or outside the aquarium....considering that the female somewhat switches back and forth between her two males, each gets a fair resting period between spawns...and heck, they're eating the spawns anyways so it's not like they're starving after brooding.

FWIW,

Matt P.
 
Last edited:
BTW, I would suggest watching the most recently posted videos at any of the forum links I posted above - the male literally mouthed, spit, and consumed the spawn within the first 5 minutes or so. It looked like he still may have had a few eggs in his mouth 30 minutes later, but he's back to eating like a pig again today.

FWIW,

Matt
 
Matt-
unfortunately i do not have a flash player on my old MAC, so no videos for me. however from my reading and your discusssions w/ Guy (who started over here a few years back- the good ole days). Guy has been quite successful in breeding fish, and is a good resource. Anyway i digress.
I will agree on you w/ a few things
1)- you have too much traffic in that tank _(which may acct for premature termination), 2) the males are not suffering from malnutrition 3) it appears your animals are infact swallowing the egg masses, and 4)- your supplimenting the fish w/ proper food-hence the reason they are breeding so well.
So.... as i mention- strip the eggs- you do not need a male for any of this post fertilzation stuff. YOur a ex-cichild breeder- consider these mouth brooding cichilds. Guy has pointed you to his tumbler. We also have a few posts here showing photos of an egg tumbler to raise the fry. Either way, your males are proving to not want to raise to full term- so take it away from them.

As for Guys cod liver oil idea- its great, and IMO its required. Selco/selcon is maidenhens oil, its similar to cod liver oil in that its HUFA emulsion. Whether you use codliver oil (cheaper) or selco- proper nutriton and proper suppliments (called conditioning the parents ) will ensure that your fish have viable eggs, and adequate healthy sperm (which also might be in question here. So keep up the heavy feedings, suplimented w/ selco and keep trying- but do consider stripping the eggs.
frank
 
oh and BTW--- Thanks for comming over to our breeders forum, we really appreciate new members and new challenges.

Believe me when i say we got some real experts in this group
frank
 
Frank, I appreciate the advice. My natural gravitation was towards these guys due to my extensive cichlid background (meanwhile the Onyx Percs in our other reef are cleaning a nest site...). I'm all too familiar with stripping & artificially incubating. I'm found myself truly hoping I wouldn't have to go through that with these guys though ;) It's looking less and less likely that's going to be the case...*sigh*

Viable Sperm - DEFINITELY something I've mulled over but haven't raised yet. I *almost* purchased another male from a LFS the other day who just happened to have them....

"Too much traffic" - at this point it SEEMS that's the likely culprit. I had good intentions to net the brooding male and immediately separate him this last time around, but to my chagrin he beat me to the punch with the 5 minute egg devouring fiasco (not the first time).

I guess it's time to do a quick thread search to see how the cardinalfish guys are setting up their "egg tumblers" ...the traditional bottoms on the Cichlid tumbers we used would be fine for the Pterapogons but a bit the openings would be too large for the small eggs of A. margaritophorus.

Thanks for the welcome and input - I'll keep you all posted!

Matt P.
 
Alrighty, so in a nutshell, this time our Bangaiis stole the spotlight and spawned behind my back; there was some urgent posting on Reef Central earlier at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=750125

As promised, I'm not going to include the full writeup and vids here just 'cause it seems pointless to keep up FOUR threads. So check those other forum threads linked at the top of this thread :) Vids vids vids to come soon.

MP
 
Bangaii vids posted - see the threads linked to in the first page, first post of this thread!

Frank, I scrutinized the vids I had leading right up to that 6 minute "unknown" window of spawning as well as what I shot post-spawn. Perhaps the quality is "lacking" but I honestly was unable to observe the ovipositor at any point.

FWIW,

MP
 
Well guys, we have a new entry in the "holding length" data:

Apogon margaritophorus
Male #1 - 11 days, <10 minutes, 2 days,
Male #2 - 3 - 6 days, <1 day, 2 days, <10 minutes

Pterapogon kaudernii
Male #1 - <4 days, <1 day

What gives? Something has changed to severly shorten the time that these guys will hold - I'm starting to notice a definite trend here...

MP
 
I think you probably have too many fish in such a small space. I had a pair of Bangaii in a 25 all to themselves and the male held to term. I'm just adding to Frank's observation with my own experience. They seem to like their space.

HTH
Kevin
 
So this is driving me nuts. NO cardinalfish spawns for the last few weeks now?!?!? Nothing has really changed though.

The last two weeks have been wierd. Looks like we're on a 7 day schedule now but I can't be sure. Following her "botched" spawn, the female A. margaritophorus looked like she had sustained some damage to her ovipositor or internal organs...the ovipositor remained "extended" through 1-22 (when we had a suspected spawn as well as a hatch of Green Banded Gobies).

So since the fish porn we've had two suspected spawning events that I can only "suspect" based on timing and rapid change in the girth of the female Apogon margaritophorus. 1-22-06 and 1-29-06. On the 22nd, the female went from fat to skinny, nothing else to note other than usual "courtship" but nothing hot and heavy. Around 5:00 PM today I noticed #2 and the female over in their corner, the male 'chewing' and the female suddenly skinny again. By the time I made my way to investigate (seconds) I found nothing other than these two fish, the male fat as all getout and the female again lanky (as she usually looks following a spawn). Looks like IF we've had spawns these last two Sundays they are again getting devoured immediately.

My next step at this point is to curtain off the sides of the tanks and see if I can't get them to hold a spawn long enough for me to strip it and incubate it in a tumbler! As always, I'll keep y'all posted. We'll crack it yet!

MP
 
Get READY! Lots of "softcore" action going on in the good 'ole cardinalfish tank tonight.

First, the Bangaiis are hot and heavy again. She's looking "plump" so if not today, probably tomorrow...

Next up, the Apogon leptacanthus. The colors have gone VERY VIBRANT and the male is doing this soaring dance, swimming in relatively wide horizontal circles around the female, dorsal fins pulled down and ventral/anal fins widely fanned. It looks REALLY different from anything I've seen before. Add onto that some "flicking" of the fins while rubbing up next to the female...looks like the male is definitely the instigator!

I'm shooting some vids...we'll see if anything is worthwhile!

MP
 
3:18 pm, central, 2-3-06 - Bangaii cardinal spawn! That's #3, the egg tumbler is here. What do you all think, time to tumble 'em?

MP
 
Being the 3rd spawn, I'm kinda intrigued by the "data" that showed up. Every spawn has happened in the early afternoon (2-4 pm central time). The time from first to second spawning was 22 days, this time around, 21 days. So...if things go as the have been, I can expect the next spawning to happen around 3:00 PM on February 24th or 25th!

MP
 
11:45 PM, I'm looking at a fat mouthful in the male Bangaii when I get the surprise of the week - We've had our first spawning of Apogon leptacanthus today as well! These guys REALLY, I mean REALLY threw me for a loop - the male is the "DINK" in the group with short fins. IF this holds true, our group is 2F/1M!!!

I did get some courtship vids....but we were out this evening so no chance of capturing the spawn. I only really noticed it when I noticed the "female" (who, is most likely a "MALE") wasn't eating. Then I noticed the slight "expansion" in the jaw.

So, anyone else spawned A. leptacanthus? In our pair, the FEMALE is later, longer fins, more colorful. The male is smaller, shorter fins, and less colorful. I GUESS I should have made the connection earlier, as usually in the Cardinals the female does all the work getting the MALE in the mood...no different in Apogon leptacanthus.

Now, the real question, WHICH SET OF CARDINALFISH do I make the effort to save? I have a bangaii male with a mouthfull who's on his third spawn, hasn't held longer than 4 days..do I tumble the bangers and give the A. leptacanthus a chance to brood naturally?

MP
 
Well, I made the decision; I figure I'll let the Threadfin Male have a fair shake at incubating the eggs naturally first....he deserves at least a couple shots at it! Meanwhile the male Bangaii is 0/2 and darnit, I'd like to scratch Pterapogon kaudernii off the list...so time to try the egg tumbler!

So caught the male Bangaii with surprisingly minimal effort. He spit the egg mass in the net without too much agitation. I checked his mouth to see if there were any left..nope. Back in he went.

So these eggs were produced around 3:20 pm today..it's just over 9 hours later. The are basically CLEAR with a tan/beige/slightly salmon pink oilspot at the "top"...one solid egg mass, and with the "oil dot" at the top, they definitely have an "orientation"...they're all floating, en mass, "oil dot up", and all oil dots within the individual eggs within the mass are oriented the same way.

My only reservation is that the eggs all STICK TOGETHER in one mass...ordinarily we set the flow on a Cichlid Egg Tumbler to be strong enough to vibrate the eggs but NOT strong enough to lift them off the bottom mesh. In this case, there really isn't any "vibration" as all the eggs are stuck together! I have it set that they're literally hovering within 1-2 mm of the bottom 99% of the time...one in a while a current from outside the tumbler will come up through the bottom and push the eggs up a little more, but they soon settle and are in no danger of being crushed at the top screen. My ONLY worry is that perhaps even this "neutrally boyant" movement is still too much...it's a fine line in artifical incubation.

Thoughts?

Matt
 
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