Mostly Apogon margaritophorus woes...

[mwp]

GET THIS...sometime between last night and 11:30 AM today the Apogon margaritophorus spawned TOO! Granted, the only way I know this is that courting was going on last night before I turned out the lights and today, here's male #2 not eating, fat as fat can be, and the female is skinny. Another batch that didn't even last a day!

MP

 

[mwp]

More vids and what the heck, I'll post them here. All these vids are FLASH format (get the plugin at www.macromedia.com).

Pterapogon kauderii - Bangaii Cardinalfish Courtship
This one turned our pretty nice, so I wanted to include it.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_bangaii_courtship.html

Apogon leptacanthus - aka. Threadfin, Longspine, Blue Eyed, White, or Glass Cardinalfish (yeah, I've seen MANY different common names applied)

These next two vids are of courtship. Again, up until this first spawn I believed I had 2 males and 1 female. Well, what I THOUGHT was the male courting I should have known better...the larger fish with longer fins shown in this video is the FEMALE. She is courting the smallest one in our group of 3, who turned out to be a MALE?! As far as sexual dimorphism goes, this is kinda backwards from most, but it could simply be based on limited mate availability in this captive situation.

There's a couple really important behaviors to watch for. The first is the side-by-side twitching which seems to be common amoung all three of the cardinalfish species we've spawned. In this particular case, the female "flicks" her fins much like a Firefish normally does when swimming. There is no discernable "vibrations" (like what you see in Pterapogon kauderii).

The other behavior that is NEW is the "soar" for lack of a better term. I've seen throat bulging, side-by-side twitching, and nudging go on between this pair of fish on numerous occasions. However, I have not seen the "soar". In both videos it occurs towards the end, the female making broad circles out in front of the male. My earlier description I inverted the "fins" - the female clamps all fins on her ventral side while leaving the dorsal fins semi erect. It's wierd, but it seems like she's trying to show off her big fat belly to the male.

Also, note that in these vids, the belly is distended (a common sign that spawning is IMMINENT in the next couple hours). It appears that her ovipositor has dropped. Unfortunately, I don't have an exact spawning time on these guys...it was an afternoon event and well, we went out for dinner! Next time maybe.

Without further delay, 2 vids of pre-spawn courtship behavior in Apogon leptacanthus!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar1.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar2.html

And what the heck, the proof that this wasn't just pair-bonding or aggression, here's the male with the female (as well as a brief start with the "spare" fish). Look at the mouthful of eggs!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_postspawn.html

Next up, one of the best pics I've gotten in the former "clam" tank - the pair of Bangers and the pair of Threadfins, both with mouthbrooding males.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0644_mouthbrooding_cardinals.jpg


One last picture and I'm callin' it a "weekend" unless something else happens. The new bangaii eggs in the egg tumbler. My apologies but the 1" tubing connection is only transluscent, so the eggs can't get in any better focus!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0649_bangaii_eggs.jpg

So...we've spawned Pterapogon kaudernii, Apogon margaritophorus, Apogon leptacanthus and the Green Banded Gobies. All that's left to "do it" are the Firefish (which I think have been spawning all along) and the Mandarins (which are still in "training" to take prepared foods...thus separated and not able to spawn...yet!). All that in a 24 gallon nano cube.

Granted, raising the larvae is a totally different feat

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

Things are looking up - the male A. leptacanthus is still holding and we're 5+ days in. The "banger" eggs in the tumbler...? Not looking good...looking pretty fungused but the catch is that unlike in the cichlid hatchery (where the tumbler was the only thing running in the tank 'cept a sponge filter) we have a lot of in-tank current...is entering the tumbler at both ends, making keeping the eggs at the bottom, gently "fluttering" a difficult task! They've ended up plastered to the top screen...not taking them out until they're "gone" but they're not looking good

MP

 

[mwp]

YEEE HA! Another spawning of Apogon margaritophorus this evening, somewhere between 9:45 and 11:30 PM central. A nice fat mouthful for male #1. Considering how things are going with the A. leptacanthus, I'm gonna sit, watch, and do nothing. Maybe #1 will get it right this time...he's done it at least once before. 10 days...that when I"ll pull him!

CRAP, we have to tear down the tanks and move in 18 days! Don't ya just love how life works sometimes....

MP

 

[mwp]

Male Apogon leptacanthus, on the evening of the 8th day post spawning.

LIGHTS OUT tonight, just after 12:15 AM on the 12th, and 30 minutes later there are larvae of Apogon leptacanthus running around!

It looks like they have a bit of "reserves", looking something like a "P" turned 90 degrees clockwise...just a touch larger than the mystery Goby larvae!

So that's a LARVAE release just after dark on day 8! There's the brood time!

Unfortunately, I think we lost a LOT of the larvae..I bet many were immediately EATEN as well as the fact that they don't appear positively phototrophic (I had to collect MOST with a brine nauplii net...many in the specimen cup look damaged).

Rotifers and Phyto in the morning!? I'll get some pictures if I can....

Our latest A. margaritophorus spawn lasted only 48 hours before the male consumed it...

MP

 

[mwp]

3 images of newly released Apogon leptacanthus larvae. Did the best I could - these were shot by collecting a viable larvae, placing on a microscope slide resting atop a LED flashlight, with the macro mode of a Nikon CP5700. Best I can do for now folks! These images have only been retouched for contrast and levels...nothing else "tweaked" here!

I'd say all told we have maybe 5-10 viable larvae to work with...the rest look all bent up and dead, most likely a result from trying to harvest with a brine shrimp net. A FEW were cupped out early on and well, the numbers definitely correlate to those caught by cupping vs. netting.

LESSON LEARNED - don't use a net, cup 'em out or siphon them or something...their little bodies are just too fragile!

MP

 

[mwp]

We're now 12 hours in with 9-10 viable larvae from this first spawn of Apogon leptacanthus. They are in a large specimen cup, hanging in the parents tank, roughly 1/2 gallon in volume. Aeration is going at a few bubbles per second.

This morning I cleaned out all the dead larvae (around 30-40) - again, it looks as though they were damaged by being transfered with the brine shrimp net.

I introduced 25 ML from a Nannochloris culture and 10 ML from a Tetraselmis culture. My first shot at Isocrysis didn't work, so that culture just got restarted yesterday. Nannochloropsus only got started yesterday as well, so we're not ready for that either.

I also added some L-Strain rotifers...not tons, but a fair amount. So far, the rotifers look just a little bit "too large" for these little guys, and NO feeding activity has been observed. Granted, when the hatched out MOST larvae had a little bit of a yolk salk still being absorbed, so they may not be ready for feeding quite yet.

Wish us TONS of luck...I'd love to raise up a half dozen of these...that'd be plenty success for me!

MP

 

[mwp]

Just about 48 hours in an I can't say we've had any additional deaths in the larvae! I've added more Tetraselmis & Nannochloris along with a very limited dosing of Nannochloropsus (that culture is still in the "early" phases but I figured it couldn't hurt).

I'd say there's really "2 sets" of larvae. One small group (3-4) hang out at the opposite end of the specimen cup from the air-feed. For the most part they rest on the bottom, occasionally swimming around. They appear to be feeding, as their guts are "rounded" behind the eyes. I have high hopes for these courageous little fish.

The other 6-7 also spend most of their time on the bottom. These guys however have "attitude" control issues. When not on the bottom, the float around, listless at ANY orientation, occasionally righting themselves. If they get caught up in the current from the air-feed, they seem to get very dissoriented. Some of these larvae are "larger" than the first set but appear skinny.

ALL of the larvae spend the majority of their time "wallowing" in the bottom gunk. They are usually upright on the bottom, although sometimes one can be seen lying on it's side. All larvae, to varying degrees of frequency, make lunging/smashing juts at the bottom - it looks like feeding in a larger grazing fish....

I'm hesitant to sample any of the larvae at this point for fear of accidently killing them (but may give one of the "free floaters a look"...9-10 isn't much to work with, but we're about ready to tie the "goby larvae" record for survival in the same setup...an no deaths beyond those initial ones at collection (when we experienced heavy mortality).

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

FWIW, I did take out one of the free floaters and looked at him under 10X...the gut (area behind and underneath the "air bubble" swim bladder) has a bronze-green tint to it.....got a nice big mouth too, but still looks too small for the rotifers that were in the sample. So maybe these guys are feeding on the various Phyto's I've been adding in?

Matt

 

[mwp]

We're now well into the third day! Lights came on this morning, the little larvae "woke up" and started smashing the bottom (feeding?). Added in more Tetraslemis and Nannochloris, + the Nannochloropsus is now at 2 mil/ML so I figured "what the heck" and added more of that as well. If only the Isocrysis would kick in...then they'd have a fully diverse algae soup to grow in. Added some more rotifers as well - rotifers from one of the cultures looked "smaller" under 10X...if so, they'd be IDEAL food for these guys.

Less "free floaters" today as well...more and more are starting to get in the grove and forage in the gunk on the bottom of the specimen cup. These developments make it all the more likely that the goby babies aren't getting FOOD whereas the cardinalfish larvae, being just a touch bigger, can handle it. We should have a hatch tonight or tomorrow on the gobies...anyone in Chicago want to try raising 'em?

MP

 

[mwp]

Well, you probably noticed I revamped the Apogon letpacanthus information into the "breeding log" thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=776659

I'm still planning on doing the same for our other CArdinalfish, but a LOT of issues have cropped up preventing me from doing that for the time being.

The Big news - after several weeks of "suspected" spawns without proof, we have ANOTHER spawning of Apogon margaritophorus. That's 11:00 AM, 2-27-06. Male #1 is the lucky bachelor again. Not gonna strip 'em 'cause I have a mouthful of A. leptacanthus to worry about...so just letting things run their natural course and we'll see what happens.

MP

 

[mwp]

3-01-06 - alrighty, well the margaritophorus held their brood fro roughly 24 hours.

On the upside, the Bangai Cardinalfish were courting all day, and I just looked to find the male with a mouthful again at 4:30. According to my calculations from the prior spawnings, they were technically a day late (I think).

FWIW,

MP

 

[mwp]

3-8-06 - Well, somewhere in the last 24 hours the male bangaii consumed the last of his brood....it basically started out huge and day by day the bulge in his throat got smaller until it was simply gone. The tanks are getting moved this Friday - hopefully we won't disturb all our breeders too much!

MP

 

[mwp]

4-3-06 - Well, the Bangaii's continue to be right on schedule with breeding. I found the male holding a clutch on 4-1, but by 4-2 the eggs were gone and he was back to eating. Meanwhile the A. margaritophorus, I haven't caught them with a clutch since the move. However, I have seen the "classic" female going from fat to thin, and a male doing the opposite, so I'm confident they're still spawning. Still, the only species holding to term in this tank is Apogon leptacanthus! It's getting close to the time where I may have to try some separations and see how that goes.

MP

 

[mwp]

4-7-06 - It's been a busy week! The leptacanthus spawned, the bangaii's spawned, green banded gobies just hatched out andnow the margaritophorus have spawned. It's another botch job...the eggs went instantly into the gut of Male #1. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that the margaritophorus are going to need their own quiet tank to spawn in and hold....there literally just isn't enough time to even try to catch the male while he's still holding...they're just gobbling up the eggs.

I *may* try taking out one of the males...that COULD be the problem too.

HMM, thoughts are always appreciated!

MP

 

[mwp]

4-25-06 - So..the margaritophorus are continuing to be horrible parents. I noticed some courtship today and male #2 is in HEAVY red breeding dress...really pretty! Going to try to get a picture if I can!

Meanwhile, the bangaii's spawned sometime between 12:15 and 1:20 PM central time today - I'm seriously contemplating giving him his own digs for this brood to see if I can get them to naturally hold to term.

And yes, soon I'll split out the margaritophorus, GBG's, bangaiis and graveri into their own "breeding log" threads...it's easier to keep track that way!

MP

 

[mwp]

Well, this last batch of Bangaii's lasted 2 days in their father's mouth before disappearing. Ultimately, the plan is as follows - Get a successful rearing of the A. leptacanthus and get them out of there and pass them on to someone else who'd like to try breeding them. Then do the same with the margaritophorus.

Alternately, those eggs are getting stripped from dad they day they show up...

MP

 

[mwp]

5-5-06 - not like anyone really cares lately, but I'm happy to report that the Apogon margaritophorus spawned again yesterday while all the mandarin madness was going on. Never saw the mouthful, male #2 is simply now a very portly fellow and the female is svelt! I hate that this is happening, but for now, as I posted in the mandarin thread, "Screw the Cardinalfish, we have mandarin babies"!

It's probably also worth mentioning that the A. leptacanthus male is yawning..so a spawning is iminent between him and female #2...and I have to leave for Iowa

MP

 

[mwp]

5-18-06 - AHA.....it's been quite in the cardinalfish tank lately, but today at 5:25 PM both the margaritophorus and the Bangaii's are courting. WHO will spawn?!??!

MP

 

[mwp]

5-19-06 - Well, at 9:30 AM, I found male #2 of the margaritopohorus was fat bellied and our female was again skinny...yet another failed spawning. It's now 5:00 PM and in the last couple hours the Bangaii have spawned....gonna strip 'em if I can and try some artificial incubation!

MP