Mountains of sawdust (360g plywood, LED, Arduino build)

[Beaun]

It could also be A. nigrofasciatus, but that picture is not helping. Trying to think of cardinals that are common in the aquarium trade that look like that.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

That looks possible as well. At any rate, I just emailed them asking for more information on the fish, I'll post here if/when they reply.

 

[Rybren]

There are some interesting ideas and concepts for more natural filtration techniques discussed in this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=969713

I recently set up a mini ATS in my sump. It's just a plastic canvas screen hanging on the glass overflow between the fuge and return section of my sump. Initially, it was only lit by the light spilling over from the fuge and there was minimal algal growth. I recently set up a 3W 6500K LED bulb pointing at the screen. The algae has really taken off and is home to lots of pods. It's too early to tell if it will significantly help to keep nutrients down. I show 0 for nitrates and phosphates using API test kits, but seeing as how I have a ton of bubble algae in the DT, the nutrients must be there.

 

[Foosinho]

First, I think I said it earlier, but I love this thread, and a lot of your design goals and approaches. When (if?) I ever get to build my own plywood monster, I hope to duplicate much of what I see here.

Second, I like to see actual facts when discussing husbandry best practices, so thanks to Beaun for linking those studies. It seems to me that skimmers (a) don't have to be super expensive and tech to be effective, and (b) even the most effective skimmers can only handle a percentage of the dissolved organics in the water column. It would seem to me that the best approach would be to marry a skimmer (if you aren't overly concerned with "the good stuff" being skimmed out) to some natural plant-based filtration. I hope we see some studies run with some alternative filtration methods, so we get additional hard data. Off to do some study...

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

First, I think I said it earlier, but I love this thread, and a lot of your design goals and approaches. When (if?) I ever get to build my own plywood monster, I hope to duplicate much of what I see here.

Thanks!

Second, I like to see actual facts when discussing husbandry best practices, so thanks to Beaun for linking those studies. It seems to me that skimmers (a) don't have to be super expensive and tech to be effective, and (b) even the most effective skimmers can only handle a percentage of the dissolved organics in the water column. It would seem to me that the best approach would be to marry a skimmer (if you aren't overly concerned with "the good stuff" being skimmed out) to some natural plant-based filtration. I hope we see some studies run with some alternative filtration methods, so we get additional hard data. Off to do some study...

In general I agree, but I think in this hobby we need to be EXTREMELY careful with phrases like this:

It would seem to me that the best approach

IMHO it is important to differentiate between discussions about "the best" option, vs. discussing multiple "optimally effective" options. That's another big beef I have with this hobby community - we assume there is a single "best" holy grail for any given problem. I mean this to be a constructive discussion BTW, not a criticism of your conclusion.

 

[Foosinho]

IMHO it is important to differentiate between discussions about "the best" option, vs. discussing multiple "optimally effective" options. That's another big beef I have with this hobby community - we assume there is a single "best" holy grail for any given problem. I mean this to be a constructive discussion BTW, not a criticism of your conclusion.

That was definitely a subjective statement on my part! I don't think we have anywhere near enough data to be able to identify an objectively best practice. My hope for my big system is to maximize health of inhabitants, and secondarily minimize maintenance requirements and power consumption. IMO, utilizing a skimmer as part of a larger solution makes a lot of sense, given the linked study results and the accompanying discussion about how skimmers work by attracting hydrophobic tails of various monomers/polymers. Remove what TOC I can with a skimmer, and use biological filters to process as much that remains as possible. Obviously, using the word "best" there takes into account my own design biases.

Of course, if the TOC removed (fatty and amino acids, I'd guess) by a skimmer results in slower growth of biological exporters (and thus a slower removal rate of other TOC not removed by skimming), then it would seem to not be worth it. I sense another hypothesis to test.

My plan hasn't changed much by this discussion, however. I'll still have an overflow-fed settling tank that gravity feeds a skimmer - I just may not run the skimmer 24-7. The "duplex sump" thread is also interesting reading. It seems like things have evolved quite a bit in the past few years (I've been very inactive here over that time).

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Foosinho, again, didn't mean to be contrary, just going on a rant.

Regarding that cardinal from saltwaterfish.com -they replied. The reply seems written by a real person who honestly cares about the information they were presenting. Unfortunately they were not able to really clarify things. She basically said that they sell a few distinct species as "candy striped Cardinals" and the photo is a poor representation of the fish they usually get have. She said the closest she can come to identification is Apogon moluccensis. She sent me this photo, which isn't actually of a fish they have but apparently looks like them: http://www.poppe-images.com/?t=17&photoid=931480

So I think it's just a big confusing mess as best as I can tell. I can't find a ton of info on Apogon moluccensis either. Though it seems to be widely held opinion that the whole Apogon genus is easy to keep so I might just go with them and see what I get.

 

[Nathan.Titulaer]

I like your approach to things. When I up graded my nano to a 60g reef I decided to go with an ATS and I love it. There is some smell after cleaning it but nothing horrible or long lasting. I went with one big screen and hate it. When I upgrade after I move I will defiantly go with separate smaller screens like you are proposing for ease of cleaning and the cleaning cycle can be staggered. I am also going to employ a settling tank on my larger system.
I do have to say that using a scrubber keeps all my parameters in check but my water is not as crystal clear as some people like. I have considered running a skimmer for and hour a day or so to try and add to water clarity. I also think it is beneficial for the livestock to have food swing up and down like in a natural environment. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

To be honest, 100% perfect crystal clear water is not one of my goals. For one thing, it's just not natural. Go dive on a real reef - even on a "clear" day with excellent visibility, the water is FULL of all kinds of floating "stuff" that's mysteriously absent in our fish tanks, and even though you can technically see really far on such a day, your vision is always slightly obscured unless you're looking at something close up. Granted I don't want a cloudy fish tank, but I don't want 100% perfect clear water, either.

I'm hoping that the carbon will help with visual fouling that comes from chemical sources ("yellowing" from the ATS, etc.) But as far as visual obstruction from particulate matter, microscopic life, etc. - I welcome it.

 

[Beaun]

Though it seems to be widely held opinion that the whole Apogon genus is easy to keep so I might just go with them and see what I get.

You are braver then I am; I would be getting them from another site at this point :lol:.

Also did some searching and found this one: http://glassbox-design.com/2009/copper-lined-cardinalfish-apogon-margaritophorus/ looks similar.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Problem is, even just trying to compile a short list of a few species I'd like to start with, none of the major online vendors have everything in stock. . .

For the more demanding fish, picky eaters, etc. I'll be adding later on, I'll probably shop locally, but for cheaper, hardier stuff to get the tank started I was hoping to find a single online vendor to order from.

 

[scott26]

Just got done looking at your build pretty cool looking I didn't do to much read on it since those pictures were so nice but have you gotten to the DIY controller?

 

[tahiriqbal]

Project has come alive after all that wait, hard work pays off . Taking brave route and leaning towards ATS seems to be fail safe and much cheaper route too. A dear friend of mine Pete (Killi) on this side of the pond who runs a wonderful SPS tank and its breath taking. There is no skimmer, few bioballs and simple cheato filled sump (not very large) and I think he also use one of those old fashioned magnet rod or something on return from tank to sump. Here is a link to the tank http://www.thesaltybox.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=5805 .
Look forward to see the rest.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Just got done looking at your build pretty cool looking I didn't do to much read on it since those pictures were so nice but have you gotten to the DIY controller?

I haven't discussed it in this thread much, but it's well under development. Here are the threads discussing the two versions I'm working on:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783536

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1847680

There is no skimmer, few bioballs and simple cheato filled sump (not very large)

I remember the days before skimmers were common, and buiballs or trickle wet/dry filters or UGFs were "the best" way to run a reef!

 

[kcress]

Adey is the name you're looking for above. Dynamic Aquaria is the book.

I want to use a TS too but I'm concerned about it. They work and very well. But in my opinion evaporation and the humidity that results is the number one issue with aquariums. Followed by noise. Followed by energy consumption.

Turf scubbers need a fairly large surface area to tank gallonage to be properly sized. They need bright lights(watts consumed). All the falling water can make a lot of noise, though some argue you can get them quiet, I've been unable to. But the real problem is the evaporative power of many square feet of scrubber surface.

Your tank will need 360 square inches of screen. That can add up to a lot of water in the air, and a lot of watts, and a lot of noise. Anyway I am struggling with this very issue as I would rather run a TS than a protein skimmer myself.

 

[TheFishMan65]

An alternative maybe the bio pellets that are out. They are supposed to be similiar to vodka dosing. The catch is that they don't need to be added everyday. They are supposedly solid carbon. Bacteria only use enough carbon to get rid of the the nitrogen and phosphate. The bacteria is then removed by a skimmer (or most is). The remaining may get skimmed next time or is supposed to make good coral food. I am heavily leaning this way right now. I may try and use a limited amount and some algae in the fuge. My tang does like fresh algae

 

[krikor]

Adey is the name you're looking for above. Dynamic Aquaria is the book.

I want to use a TS too but I'm concerned about it. They work and very well. But in my opinion evaporation and the humidity that results is the number one issue with aquariums. Followed by noise. Followed by energy consumption.

Turf scubbers need a fairly large surface area to tank gallonage to be properly sized. They need bright lights(watts consumed). All the falling water can make a lot of noise, though some argue you can get them quiet, I've been unable to. But the real problem is the evaporative power of many square feet of scrubber surface.

Your tank will need 360 square inches of screen. That can add up to a lot of water in the air, and a lot of watts, and a lot of noise. Anyway I am struggling with this very issue as I would rather run a TS than a protein skimmer myself.

The evaporation is one of my main concerns... noise, not so much personally as i would have this in my basement in its own fish room.

Still struggling with the evaporation though, you could create your screens in a sealed container with an overflow out the bottom of the tank.

Think of 3-4 screens inside a brute trash can (painted white inside of course) water goes in the top, over the screens.. hits the bottom of the barrel and flows out the bottom onto the sump or whatever. ...

Something like this thats gravity fed could be useful for me, not sure about your two setups as both you and DWZM have room for something like that and it would be pretty noisey as the water would be dripping constantly from condensation and the flow over the screens.

Not even sure it'll work great, though, its something to think about.

 

[krikor]

Oh and Kcress/DWZM... Im not sure if i posted in either of your builds before, but ive been totally stalking them. Great work both of you!

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I'll get in to the ATS design more as I build it, but basically it's a modification of the "classic" 5-minute bucket conversion SantaMonica used to promote - there will be a pipe with a slit, screen inserted in slit, suspended over the sump. The screen will be about half below the level of the sump walls, so it will be partially enclosed, and I'm planning on building some sort of "box" around the whole mess to enclose it further - hoping this will cut down on evap and noise. Plus this is mostly behind drywall and I'm already thinking about noise insulation in the stand and doors so I'm not TOO worried about noise.

At any rate, if I get it off the ground and it just plain sucks, I'll tear it out. I'm not fanatical about this approach, just interested in playing with it. The good news is that even though I'm doing a slightly fancy ATS, it's still practically free compared to most reefkeeping projects. At the least I'll be able to re-use the lighting on a 'fuge, so the only real cost is a couple bucks of plastic.

I do have the space above the tank to do a design that drains directly into the display, so I suppose that could be an option if my sump version is garbage. We'll see!

 

[scott26]

These truff scrubbers are interesting ideas it will be interesting to see how you do it with your system. Are you still going to run a skimmer or just the ATS