My 500 + gallon system. Last 13 years to now. Build, Aquascaping & more. Lots of pics

[newyorkstyles]

Replacing a DSB

Replacing a DSB

Scott, being that you have been in the hobby for 20+ years, I would like to get your input and advice on a problem with my system, which I currently have under control, but fear it getting out of control again. Here is a little background on my marine system as well as my dilemma with my deep sand bed.

As you may have seen on some of my YouTube videos, I have a 90G Oceanic Tech Tank with 30 gallon sump. On the main display, I have a 4" DSB that has been on this system for a little over 2 1/2 years. My system is over stocked with about 16 fish and 20 + corals, but I more than make up when it comes to filtration. Filtration consists of a newly purchased AquaC EV 240 skimmer with mag 18 which recently replaced an EV 180, a 7" DSB in the refugium stage along with chaetomorpha and caulerpa prolifera, 120 pounds of live rock, 25 watt UV sterilizer, 2 phosban reactors one containing rowaphos and the other containing chemipure carbon.

Here is my problem. Recently for the past 3 months or so, I have been getting diatoms and small patches of cyanobacteria growing on the sand bed here and there. Initially I suspected it was my Spectrapure Maxcap 5 stage RO/DI filter that needed the cartriges and RO membrane replaced, so I went ahead and did that. My water parameters are all great with nitrate and phosphates reading zero after adding the reactor, calcium and alkalinity are on the money, and my PH is stable at 8.1 to 8.2. My water changes are 20 gallons a week.

I suspect the diatoms and cyanobacteria is growing because I had been recently disturbing a small section of the sand bed in the front of the glass to eliminate the algae growing on the front glass beneath the sand bed. last night, I moved it a bit again and I began to smell rotten egg coming from the tank. All the corals are fine and the fish are well, but I am concerned about the sand bed and have thought to completely replace it in one shot. By the way, there are no signs of black areas beneath the sand bed, at least not that I can see on the front or sides of the tank.

Has my sand bed gone bad due to the rotten egg smell and is it a good approach to replace it all in one shot? How would you suggest about doing this if it is necessary to do so. The sand I have in there now is Natures Ocean Bio-Active live sand that is .05mm to 1.7mm is size. I plan on replacing it with the same brand of sand only sugar fine and the sizes will be .01mm to .05mm. Please help! Any and all suggestions are welcome

 

[Marc]

Scott, being that you have been in the hobby for 20+ years, I would like to get your input and advice on a problem with my system, which I currently have under control, but fear it getting out of control again. Here is a little background on my marine system as well as my dilemma with my deep sand bed.

As you may have seen on some of my YouTube videos, I have a 90G Oceanic Tech Tank with 30 gallon sump. On the main display, I have a 4" DSB that has been on this system for a little over 2 1/2 years. My system is over stocked with about 16 fish and 20 + corals, but I more than make up when it comes to filtration. Filtration consists of a newly purchased AquaC EV 240 skimmer with mag 18 which recently replaced an EV 180, a 7" DSB in the refugium stage along with chaetomorpha and caulerpa prolifera, 120 pounds of live rock, 25 watt UV sterilizer, 2 phosban reactors one containing rowaphos and the other containing chemipure carbon.

Here is my problem. Recently for the past 3 months or so, I have been getting diatoms and small patches of cyanobacteria growing on the sand bed here and there. Initially I suspected it was my Spectrapure Maxcap 5 stage RO/DI filter that needed the cartriges and RO membrane replaced, so I went ahead and did that. My water parameters are all great with nitrate and phosphates reading zero after adding the reactor, calcium and alkalinity are on the money, and my PH is stable at 8.1 to 8.2. My water changes are 20 gallons a week.

I suspect the diatoms and cyanobacteria is growing because I had been recently disturbing a small section of the sand bed in the front of the glass to eliminate the algae growing on the front glass beneath the sand bed. last night, I moved it a bit again and I began to smell rotten egg coming from the tank. All the corals are fine and the fish are well, but I am concerned about the sand bed and have thought to completely replace it in one shot. By the way, there are no signs of black areas beneath the sand bed, at least not that I can see on the front or sides of the tank.

Has my sand bed gone bad due to the rotten egg smell and is it a good approach to replace it all in one shot? How would you suggest about doing this if it is necessary to do so. The sand I have in there now is Natures Ocean Bio-Active live sand that is .05mm to 1.7mm is size. I plan on replacing it with the same brand of sand only sugar fine and the sizes will be .01mm to .05mm. Please help! Any and all suggestions are welcome

I understand that you intended this question for Scott, but let me tell you that what you have is called hydrogen sulfide gas or H2S. It's extremely deadly to your tanks inhabitants and it could have the potential to escape the sand bed all at once and kill everything by suffucating it. Also your sand bed is full of phophates and silicates that trigger diatom and cyanbacteria blooms. So removing the sand bed little at a time as well as vaccuming it out will help greatly. You don't have to replace the whole sand bed unless you really want to spend the time siphoning it all out. Just make sure to mix it around by vacumming it to collect detritus and some of the bad H2S bacteria you have in there. What does your TDS meter on your RODI read? If it reads zero then your in good shape.

Marc

 

[rpjaws74]

nice tank indeed

 

[dahenley]

i agree with Marc.

i would also suggest getting a bag of sand from a few reefers in your local club. i was overhearing a fellow reefer saying that tanks will eventually get used to the bacteria in a system, and adding new bacteria will keep it the bacteria diverse and keep things like this from happening. i believe he picked it up from a Randy Holmes (i think thats how its spelled) article. i believe he says that randy goes to the ocean and picks up a cup of sand and adds it to his reef 2wice a year. he runs a deep sand bed and has yet to have Old Tank Syndrome. i forgot how long Randy has had his reef up and going, but its been longer then i have been alive......

happy reefing.


Oh, and Scott, is there an ETA on Jims new episodes. wither it be your update, or another episode!

 

[slief]

Scott, being that you have been in the hobby for 20+ years, I would like to get your input and advice on a problem with my system, which I currently have under control, but fear it getting out of control again. Here is a little background on my marine system as well as my dilemma with my deep sand bed.

As you may have seen on some of my YouTube videos, I have a 90G Oceanic Tech Tank with 30 gallon sump. On the main display, I have a 4" DSB that has been on this system for a little over 2 1/2 years. My system is over stocked with about 16 fish and 20 + corals, but I more than make up when it comes to filtration. Filtration consists of a newly purchased AquaC EV 240 skimmer with mag 18 which recently replaced an EV 180, a 7" DSB in the refugium stage along with chaetomorpha and caulerpa prolifera, 120 pounds of live rock, 25 watt UV sterilizer, 2 phosban reactors one containing rowaphos and the other containing chemipure carbon.

Here is my problem. Recently for the past 3 months or so, I have been getting diatoms and small patches of cyanobacteria growing on the sand bed here and there. Initially I suspected it was my Spectrapure Maxcap 5 stage RO/DI filter that needed the cartriges and RO membrane replaced, so I went ahead and did that. My water parameters are all great with nitrate and phosphates reading zero after adding the reactor, calcium and alkalinity are on the money, and my PH is stable at 8.1 to 8.2. My water changes are 20 gallons a week.

I suspect the diatoms and cyanobacteria is growing because I had been recently disturbing a small section of the sand bed in the front of the glass to eliminate the algae growing on the front glass beneath the sand bed. last night, I moved it a bit again and I began to smell rotten egg coming from the tank. All the corals are fine and the fish are well, but I am concerned about the sand bed and have thought to completely replace it in one shot. By the way, there are no signs of black areas beneath the sand bed, at least not that I can see on the front or sides of the tank.

Has my sand bed gone bad due to the rotten egg smell and is it a good approach to replace it all in one shot? How would you suggest about doing this if it is necessary to do so. The sand I have in there now is Natures Ocean Bio-Active live sand that is .05mm to 1.7mm is size. I plan on replacing it with the same brand of sand only sugar fine and the sizes will be .01mm to .05mm. Please help! Any and all suggestions are welcome

Rotten egg smell from the DSB and a VERY bad thing for your entire system.

As for diatom and cyano. First I need to preface that in my long term experience, most of my algeas battles were won by ignoring them and letting them run their course. I found that certain types of algaes would return at the same times every year. That said, I do believe that many are cyclic while others are spurred by tank issues whether it be Phosphates or nitrates or other nutrients. They feed on nutrients and will continue to until they exhaust the source.

Here is where I am at with a similar situation. Its not the first time I have dealt with this but its always a waiting game with little to base results on.

I too have diatom and cyano issue that I have battled on and off for several months. I credit my fuge for getting it 'more' under control. I kind of agree with Marc in that it is fed by something afoul inside the tank. In your case, the fact that your DSB is as old as it is follows my thinking with some of my issues. In particular my sand bed in my display. Its been there for years and was deep enough that vacuuming it properly was near impossible without doing HUGE water changes to accomplish it.

Before I replaced my wet dry with the new sump & fuge, I had diatom on a few rocks as well as a bit of cyano in my display.

My fuge which has been running for about 4 months now has a 4" DSB that I leave alone. I had a ton of chaeto growing in it which I was pulling out on a regular basis as it doubled in size every week or so. Over the last 2 months my fuge became overgrown with diatom and cyno growing on top of the chaeto on the surface of the water. I would net as much diatom out as I could weekly or more but it was an effort in futility. The sand in the bottom was clean as could be but you could nearly walk across the surface.

I let it get that way with the intent on allowing it to burn itself out. After a while it did seem to slwo down but I got burnt out on letting it burn out. Last week I removed most everything from the fuge besides the sand and what little of the chaeto that I felt wasnt too coverer in the crap. The remaining chaeto has doubled in size since. There is some more diatom on the surface of the fuge but.... I have virtually none in my display as it has been since shortly after the new fuge went in. I credit the fuge for keeping it tollerable. I will continue to remove the sand from my DT and I will leave my DSB alone in my fuge.. I will continue to remove/export the crap from my fuge on a bi-weekly or monthly basis. I do believe that time and vigilance will eliminate it.

Probably not the expertootaledge that you were after but I figured I would share what I current approach is.

 

[dahenley]

i thought you were using mud in your refugium?
and i dont remember where you got it from? just wondering.

 

[newyorkstyles]

replacing the DSB

replacing the DSB

Thanks to all of you and Scott who have provided me with some similar experiences and input to my problem.

This Hydrogen Sulfide problem is really ****ing me off and I really should do something about it, and do it quickly. My problems have been very similar to Scott's when it comes to battling these nuisance alga's, only in my case, I believe it to be my DSB. During the more than 2 years and a half that I have had this DSB I have never once syphoned it out and the sand bed is full of life. This being the case, after replacing my RO/DI cartridges, which now read 0 tds coming out of the ro unit, performing several water changes, cleaning out as much of the diatoms and cyano as possible, and discovering the smell coming out the sand bed, all of this has lead me to believe the problem and cause of the nuisance algae is related to the deep sand bed.

My main concern is if I replace the entire sand bed with sugar grain size live sand, and do it in one shot, will my corals and fish perish due to the shock? I really don't have an issue replacing the whole sand bed in one shot. My plan is to remove all the mature water and rock, place them in bins, remove all the fishes, and just pull out the sand by using a large net and immediately thereafter add the new live sand. With this in mind, I am worried that it could cause havoc on my corals and fish with such a drastic change in one shot. Is it safe to say that it can be done, if the only change will be the sand bed, and all of the existing live rock and mature water will be returned to the tank?

Thanks again to Scott and all of you whom provide input on this subject.

 

[Marc]

Thanks to all of you and Scott who have provided me with some similar experiences and input to my problem.

This Hydrogen Sulfide problem is really ****ing me off and I really should do something about it, and do it quickly. My problems have been very similar to Scott's when it comes to battling these nuisance alga's, only in my case, I believe it to be my DSB. During the more than 2 years and a half that I have had this DSB I have never once syphoned it out and the sand bed is full of life. This being the case, after replacing my RO/DI cartridges, which now read 0 tds coming out of the ro unit, performing several water changes, cleaning out as much of the diatoms and cyano as possible, and discovering the smell coming out the sand bed, all of this has lead me to believe the problem and cause of the nuisance algae is related to the deep sand bed.

My main concern is if I replace the entire sand bed with sugar grain size live sand, and do it in one shot, will my corals and fish perish due to the shock? I really don't have an issue replacing the whole sand bed in one shot. My plan is to remove all the mature water and rock, place them in bins, remove all the fishes, and just pull out the sand by using a large net and immediately thereafter add the new live sand. With this in mind, I am worried that it could cause havoc on my corals and fish with such a drastic change in one shot. Is it safe to say that it can be done, if the only change will be the sand bed, and all of the existing live rock and mature water will be returned to the tank?

Thanks again to Scott and all of you whom provide input on this subject.

I have changed out my sand bed three times in the last 10 years. I have learned that the majority of my good nitrifying bacteria are in the rock itself and not much in the sand at all! I took out all 200 pounds worth and dumped it which nearly gave me a hernia and managed to put in brand new Special grade reef sand from Caribsea. I only put enough to cover the bottom. It has worked very well as my nitrates are now only 5 ppm and my algae problems disappeared fairly quickly. So yes you can do it as long as you have enough rock for biological filtration. I did it and I have a very high fish load and have not experienced any ammonia or nitrite spikes. Liverock is amazing and there are boulder size pieces with mushrooms that I prize. So a deep sand bed is definetly your "sewer" problem ready to backup!! And it stinks when it does!

Marc

 

[newyorkstyles]

I have changed out my sand bed three times in the last 10 years. I have learned that the majority of my good nitrifying bacteria are in the rock itself and not much in the sand at all! I took out all 200 pounds worth and dumped it which nearly gave me a hernia and managed to put in brand new Special grade reef sand from Caribsea. I only put enough to cover the bottom. It has worked very well as my nitrates are now only 5 ppm and my algae problems disappeared fairly quickly. So yes you can do it as long as you have enough rock for biological filtration. I did it and I have a very high fish load and have not experienced any ammonia or nitrite spikes. Liverock is amazing and there are boulder size pieces with mushrooms that I prize. So a deep sand bed is definetly your "sewer" problem ready to backup!! And it stinks when it does!

Marc

Would it be safe to add another 4 inches to the display again?

 

[slief]

i thought you were using mud in your refugium?
and i dont remember where you got it from? just wondering.

There is about 3" of figi mud that came from a local supplier. On top of that is a 3" sand bed.

 

[slief]

Any new videos or updates on the tank Scott?

Jim will be posting the episode for the Euro Reef trip any day. We will probably shoot another episode on my tank or at least my skimmer next week.

 

[Marc]

Would it be safe to add another 4 inches to the display again?

Personally I dont believe in deep sand beds anymore and with 4 inches of sand would just add to the nutrient build up. When you have a deep sand bed, detritus gets caught up in there and then thats the fastest way your nitrates starts to climb as well as your phosphates. For asthetics Im sure it would look cool but just adds to your problems. I had a 4 inch deep sand bed and half of it turned into concrete because I did not "stir" it enough. It was a pain and took a chisel to break it apart to take out. I also had cyanobacteria constantly with sugar size sand. So now all I have is a 1/2" inch caribsea special grade reef sand layer on the bottom. Now I can vacume it to extract the phosphates and detritus and have never had a cyanbacteria bloom again!

Marc

 

[slief]

Personally I dont believe in deep sand beds anymore and with 4 inches of sand would just add to the nutrient build up. When you have a deep sand bed, detritus gets caught up in there and then thats the fastest way your nitrates starts to climb as well as your phosphates. For asthetics Im sure it would look cool but just adds to your problems. I had a 4 inch deep sand bed and half of it turned into concrete because I did not "stir" it enough. It was a pain and took a chisel to break it apart to take out. I also had cyanobacteria constantly with sugar size sand. So now all I have is a 1/2" inch caribsea special grade reef sand layer on the bottom. Now I can vacume it to extract the phosphates and detritus and have never had a cyanbacteria bloom again!

Marc

For those of you wondering why I am removing the sand from my tank, Marc has summed it up. If after removing my existing sand from the DT, I choose to add sand in the future, it will be a VERY thin layer. I do however have the sand in my fuge and while I am still not convinced I will keep it there indefinately, I do believe that I dont have the detritus issue due to the fact that the fuge is down stream of the main sump where the socks and skimmer reside. That said, the current state of the fuge with the DSB is a learning experience. I have never had a fuge on a tank let alone a purpose built DSB. Time will tell for me. I can always easily convert it to an algae scrubber or use it for other purposes.

 

[Marc]

For those of you wondering why I am removing the sand from my tank, Marc has summed it up. If after removing my existing sand from the DT, I choose to add sand in the future, it will be a VERY thin layer. I do however have the sand in my fuge and while I am still not convinced I will keep it there indefinately, I do believe that I dont have the detritus issue due to the fact that the fuge is down stream of the main sump where the socks and skimmer reside. That said, the current state of the fuge with the DSB is a learning experience. I have never had a fuge on a tank let alone a purpose built DSB. Time will tell for me. I can always easily convert it to an algae scrubber or use it for other purposes.

Scotts sump and fuge design was well thought out and close to a perfect reef filtration system that I would love to replicate myself. The water goes down in the filter socks where detritus is removed and then the water passes through the skimmer BEFORE GOING TO THE REFUGIUM and back to the tank. This is how it is suppose to work! I don't understand why most aquarist do it backwards in my opinion. They have the water going to the sump with no detritus pre filtration then to the fuge then to the skimmer??? Scott has defenitly done his homework and thats why his particular system works and is my absolute favorite. My fuge failed due to the amount of detritus getting loose and floating back to the refugium and scewing up the sand bed. So to much sand in the display is no good but with Scotts design you could safely keep a deep sand bed in the fuge because there is little chance of the fuge getting clogged up with unwanted crap.

Marc

 

[newyorkstyles]

For those of you wondering why I am removing the sand from my tank, Marc has summed it up. If after removing my existing sand from the DT, I choose to add sand in the future, it will be a VERY thin layer. I do however have the sand in my fuge and while I am still not convinced I will keep it there indefinately, I do believe that I dont have the detritus issue due to the fact that the fuge is down stream of the main sump where the socks and skimmer reside. That said, the current state of the fuge with the DSB is a learning experience. I have never had a fuge on a tank let alone a purpose built DSB. Time will tell for me. I can always easily convert it to an algae scrubber or use it for other purposes.

There are many different theories when it comes to DSB's, I on the other hand, unlike Marc, believe they are quite beneficial. The DSB in your fuge will only benefit your system more by creating a natural environment for beneficial fauna to grow as well as serve as a natural nitrate reducer. If it were my system, I would definitely keep it. Detritus wont have a chance to settle in there, and if some of it does, your micro and macro fauna will consume it.

 

[newyorkstyles]

Scotts sump and fuge design was well thought out and close to a perfect reef filtration system that I would love to replicate myself. The water goes down in the filter socks where detritus is removed and then the water passes through the skimmer BEFORE GOING TO THE REFUGIUM and back to the tank. This is how it is suppose to work! I don't understand why most aquarist do it backwards in my opinion. They have the water going to the sump with no detritus pre filtration then to the fuge then to the skimmer??? Scott has defenitly done his homework and thats why his particular system works and is my absolute favorite. My fuge failed due to the amount of detritus getting loose and floating back to the refugium and scewing up the sand bed. So to much sand in the display is no good but with Scotts design you could safely keep a deep sand bed in the fuge because there is little chance of the fuge getting clogged up with unwanted crap.

Marc

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have had DSB's since the very beginning of my addiction for this hobby back in 2004. I have always had 4" or more of fine sand on my main displays and this is the first time that I have had a problem like this.

After checking my water parameters, which everything from nitrate to phosphates are reading zero, and really examining the DSB, I noticed that the sand bed has so much life and worms that I really began to reconsider examining the bed further before I replace it. What I did yesterday is that I removed several scoops of the sand all the way to the bottom from different sections to see if the rotten egg smell comes out of it. My discovery was that the sand was extremely clean and when scooped out, it not only not smell like rotten egg, it also contained the same creamy colored silt it did when I first added it. No dark scum or dirt was coming out of it. I was surprised to discover this and then realized that I was the one at fault for what was happening to the front part of the DSB.

It appears that for the last 3 months of my cyano problem, I had been moving and digging the front part of the bed to clean the glass of the algae that grows there. By disturbing the bed, I probably deeply buried many tiny white sea stars and god knows what else and hence after a while, these buried animals died and began to decompose, creating the cyano, as well as releasing the smell of death.

I have since simply siphoned this front area of the bed to clean it out well, and believe me you, it hurt me to do this because by siphoning out this area, I also siphoned out many worms and critters living within the bed. I guess it's OK to do this because the critters on the rest of the sand bed will repopulate this are in due time.

I am a little shocked at the fact that your bed turned into a rock of sand after a while. It could have been due to lack of water movement, lack of micro and macro fauna to move the bed, and possibly the addition of too much calcium. In my bed, I have over 60 nassarus snails, god only knows how many tiny white brittle stars, as well as other micro and macro fauna that came in the live rock, to keep the sand bed clean, healthy and stirred.

I am not going to lie though, I freaked out when i smelled that rotten egg smell and my main concern was whether it was OK to replace it all in one shot without experiencing death of the animals and corals. Thank god this is not the case, but I want to thank the both of you for providing me with previous experiences and possible solutions for this issue.

 

[newyorkstyles]

Wrong quote reply

Wrong quote reply

Oops lol, I made a mistake and replied to the wrong quote post from Marc. Everything you said on your post was on the money when it comes to Scott's filtration. I meant to reply to the post where you state that you go against DSB's. Everything I wrote applies to Marc's previous posts about DSB's. Sorry!

 

[slief]

Scotts sump and fuge design was well thought out and close to a perfect reef filtration system that I would love to replicate myself. The water goes down in the filter socks where detritus is removed and then the water passes through the skimmer BEFORE GOING TO THE REFUGIUM and back to the tank. This is how it is suppose to work! I don't understand why most aquarist do it backwards in my opinion. They have the water going to the sump with no detritus pre filtration then to the fuge then to the skimmer??? Scott has defenitly done his homework and thats why his particular system works and is my absolute favorite. My fuge failed due to the amount of detritus getting loose and floating back to the refugium and scewing up the sand bed. So to much sand in the display is no good but with Scotts design you could safely keep a deep sand bed in the fuge because there is little chance of the fuge getting clogged up with unwanted crap.

Marc

Wow.. Thank you very much for the flattering comment. Hearing that is very reassuring!

My design was primarely based on my experience with tanks in general and largely based on my space constraints and maximizing the sump and fuge size. Not too much research involved at all though I really tried to go over every detail time and time again including accessing imaginary socks through imaginary doors to make sure I would be able to access things easily. As a result, I did go through numerous design changes. The thing that I find most humerous is that the original design started out as tape on the floor so that I could deal with a scale model and make access to the design elements (socks, skimmer, fuge etc) a key priority. My space and access is very limited due to the footprint 46"x92" and only having 2 doors that are 30" wide by 30" tall to access everything underneath.

Truth is that I am very pleased with the final results and really wouldn't change a thing. The only thing I have recently considered which is more of an addition than a change would be a new lid for the fuge that would extend the height of the fuge significantly so that the mangroves could gain some appreciable height. The easy thing would be to remove the lids but then I have to create a divider such as a curtain between the main sump and fuge to mitigate unwanted algae growth in the main sump. The bigger reason for the lids is to keep evaporation and humidity under the tank to a minimum so removing the lids entirely is not a good option. That is the only thing thus far that I would/will change.

The best thing I found with my design is the ability to shut the fuge down and bypass it completely by opening one valve and closing another. It makes servicing the fuge without creating a mess in the tank simple.I dont have to shut the return pump off and the main sump can continue to run. All I have to do is isolate/bypass the fuge with the valves and the flow to the fuge is diverted from the main sump directly to the tank. When I cleaned out all the extra algae from the fuge, I used this method to keep the unwanted algae out of the tank. It worked like a charm.

 

[dahenley]

did you ever redesign the cup cleaning device? you had talked about it at one time, but didn know if you ever redesigned it or not?


any new pictures or do we have to wait on the LAFish guys to see something new?

 

[slief]

did you ever redesign the cup cleaning device? you had talked about it at one time, but didn know if you ever redesigned it or not?


any new pictures or do we have to wait on the LAFish guys to see something new?

I didnt need to redesign the cup cleaner. I eliminated the RODI pressure pump and hooked the cup washer directly to the spicket in my closet. I have a Solenoid that is manually controlled through my apex. When I want to clean the cup, I hit a key on my computer and the solenoid opens. The water pressure is enough that the existing setup works nearly perfect. I need to get a video of it in action. I will try to get a short clip of it in action in the next day or 2. Between the Aquadriver SCH and my wash down mod, I have not removed the cup from the skimmer in months as its still clean.