my rice experiment
- Thread starter kkil4life
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I was getting all ready in order to start with the Rice and my parameters seems to be better than I've expected:
NO3 = something between 0 and 5 (I think I should took a pic as icycoral)
PO4= something between 0 and 0.25
I'm not sure if the rice would do something so I can see some results what do you think? I still have my soak rice and by the way the PO4 test was out of the chart it has 10 as max so now I'm sure that was the issue with NEWBIEREEF
NO3 = something between 0 and 5 (I think I should took a pic as icycoral)
PO4= something between 0 and 0.25
I'm not sure if the rice would do something so I can see some results what do you think? I still have my soak rice and by the way the PO4 test was out of the chart it has 10 as max so now I'm sure that was the issue with NEWBIEREEF
Lemeshianos
New member
Hey, kkil4life maybe you are being a bit overprotective on the rice experiment.
After all it's been less than a week. While it seems to work as a source of solid OCD we have only seen the short term results.
acrotrdco just gave some numbers that have about 5x the quantity of heavy metals NSW has. If these metals are not removed by carbon/skimmer/etc and we change the rice after 2 months, then in a year we would have 30x of these heavy metals compared to NSW.
I have send a question to Ron Shimek asking about the removal of these metals from the water column and what would the long term effects be if it remains in the water.
Hoping we get a positive reply so I can hop on the rice train as well!
After all it's been less than a week. While it seems to work as a source of solid OCD we have only seen the short term results.
acrotrdco just gave some numbers that have about 5x the quantity of heavy metals NSW has. If these metals are not removed by carbon/skimmer/etc and we change the rice after 2 months, then in a year we would have 30x of these heavy metals compared to NSW.
I have send a question to Ron Shimek asking about the removal of these metals from the water column and what would the long term effects be if it remains in the water.
Hoping we get a positive reply so I can hop on the rice train as well!
Btw, you can try to make polimerized pure starch, if you worry about metalls in rice.
icycoral
I glue animals to rocks
Update
Update
Well its been 11 days since I brought my rice reactor online and things are still good. my levels:
Sg 1.026
Ph 8.1
Ammo 0
No2 0
No3 0 undetectable
Po4 0 undetectable
Kh 9
Calc 460-480
Mag 1410
Orp 292mV
Over all my tank looks good. My corals and all livestock seem fine. my sps corals look good. one interesting thing is I have a green Millie and the colony looks dull with poor pe but a frag of the same coral on my frag rack in very high light looks absolutely amazing. my lps and softies seem ok. My armor of the gods paly's stems are growing longer like they are light deprived and my purple hornets are a little pale but other than that not too much going on. my blastos are good to go and so is my scolly. my rainbow acan doesn't seem to be showing negative side effects either. The rice still seems to be holding up. And I'm cleaning my glass about every other day. So far so good.
Update
Well its been 11 days since I brought my rice reactor online and things are still good. my levels:
Sg 1.026
Ph 8.1
Ammo 0
No2 0
No3 0 undetectable
Po4 0 undetectable
Kh 9
Calc 460-480
Mag 1410
Orp 292mV
Over all my tank looks good. My corals and all livestock seem fine. my sps corals look good. one interesting thing is I have a green Millie and the colony looks dull with poor pe but a frag of the same coral on my frag rack in very high light looks absolutely amazing. my lps and softies seem ok. My armor of the gods paly's stems are growing longer like they are light deprived and my purple hornets are a little pale but other than that not too much going on. my blastos are good to go and so is my scolly. my rainbow acan doesn't seem to be showing negative side effects either. The rice still seems to be holding up. And I'm cleaning my glass about every other day. So far so good.
Acrotrdco
New member
acrotrdco, first things first, NSW values are not constant everywhere. it changes from place to place. given this, all elements have their min and max levels. NSW value of alk is approx 7, what do we have our alk at? 9 sometimes 10 or even upto 12 and nothing horrific happens.
we dose iron and manganese into our tanks without even knowing the contentrations, and what happens? nothing.
I've put up calculations using YOUR numbers as to why none of the minerals are harmful in the concentrations present in rice.
zinc, I really am not aware of its role and what harm it does, so I will not comment, but again its not present in any harmful concentration.
the only worry is copper which is 0.28mg in 100g. now even using laymans conversion, if you dump 0.28mg in 100g (375L), that makes it .00074mg/l = 0.00074ppm. are you going to be worried about that? I dont think theres a reason to be worried about it.
unless u dump a 20lbs bag into ur 10g nano tank, I dont think u have anything to worry about.
auroratrdco, I find it funny that you want to bash on rice when you have no solid backing for it. even your theoritcal explanation was flawed. my backing is MY EXPERIMENT. which I have documented every single step of the way.
for those of you worried about using rice, if you really are concerned, please just keep checking this thread cuz of those of us that use this method will post here till we prove that its a feasable and reliable method.
if you guys have any doubts, feel free to pm me or post here and I'll help as much as I can.
As for getting a clearer picture, if Randy comes back I'm sure he will clear up this whole numbers game and tell us for sure. i'm sure he'll even make a rice molecule avatar for me
kkil4life,
I do know that NSW values vary from places to places, but whereever the 0.09ppm (or 90 ppb) copper content NSW is located, it's not suitable for any coral or invertebrates growth, the sample is probably collected near coastal lines where the water is polluted by human activities. Which also means if you have 0.09 ppm copper in your tank, chances are you won't be able to keep any invertebrates and/or coral alive in there either.
Nonetheless, I'm not bashing on using rice, in fact I've been using np biopellets since Jan 2010 (the very first batch of folks who used biopellets) and I know they work. We've also been trying to find out if there're alternatives to the expensive biopellets and rice (granular starch) was one of them.
See my other post and you'll know I'm on the same boat.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1883610
I'm here just to remind people who're experimenting with rice (or other form of granular starch) that they should be aware of the risks of minerals leaking into the tank (Phosphorus being the most important one, among others), and should not be overdosing rice in their tank.
Using PCL (polylactic acid) for example, from waste water processing studies, the best results is obtain when 10% corn starch is used in the PCL, which means if you're using granular starch, you should be using much less quantity compared to using other plastic biopellets (PHA/PCL/PLA).
For example, N/P Biopellets recommend users to use a maximum of 1L for 500L water (120G), so for your 105G tank you should be using about 900ml, if converted into 10% (granular) starch, you should be using at most 90ml of starch, or half-cup (1 US cup being 236ml). However you're using 1.5 cup now that's about 3 times more than you should.
So in general, it is advised that for people who're experimenting with rice reactors, start with about 90-100mL per 100G (if not less), and gradually add more depends on the results you observed from your tank.
Also, due to the high phosphorus content in granular starch, you may also need to run some form of PO4 absorbent like GFO, this is because denitrification bacteria growth will uptake N
at a ratio of 10:1, eventually your tank will be depleted of N ions and will become N limited, meaning there'll be a surplus of P left in the tank. This is exactly the situation I've observed from my tank using NP biopellets after 6 months, and I still have to run some Rowaphos just to keep the PO4 level undetectable.10%? Why? If we compare formulas for PLA C3H6O3 and starch C6H10O5 we can't see a big difference. So, weight of PLA is 90 and starch 162.
If we want to use starch instead of PLA we must take 50% less starch. 450 ml of rice vs 900 ml PLA.
But i am completely agreed with this!
icycoral
I glue animals to rocks
maybe some one could tell me what kinda skimmer this is ( old pic so thats not whats coming out its way worse already)
[/QUOTE]
It's a coralife super skimmer 65 rated for tanks 65 gal and smaller. I know because it was the first skimmer I bought and still use it on a small 30 gallon frag tank that is a separate setup from my reef tank. They are a good cheap skimmer that will pull some nice skimmate. The only draw back is it if the water level, salinity, or doc levels change it needs to be readjusted to be at peak performance.
It's a coralife super skimmer 65 rated for tanks 65 gal and smaller. I know because it was the first skimmer I bought and still use it on a small 30 gallon frag tank that is a separate setup from my reef tank. They are a good cheap skimmer that will pull some nice skimmate. The only draw back is it if the water level, salinity, or doc levels change it needs to be readjusted to be at peak performance.
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Acrotrdco
New member
Du,
You sure it's PLA you're talking about? PLA (Polylactic Acid) is commonly used as biodegradable plastic (like plastic cups, bottles, etc.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid
In fact you can DIY PLA with corn starch:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1780922
I don't see why 1g of PLA cost 70E... otherwise a PLA plastic cup would cost like US$20? That doesn't make sense...
NP biopellets are probably using PHA not PLA, please see my other post.
Im not sure that is true. As i know the main usage of PLA is cosmetic. AFAIK "Sculptra" contain it, so you can check the price :lol:
Im not sure that is real PLA. Imo, it is just polimerized starch.
Because bioplastic not contain of PLA.
Did you have formulas for PHA? We compare it weight with starch.
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daveonbass
New member
day three...
no change.
BUT. I too am using an API...and yes the 5 and 10 look very similar. The only was I was saying that I was at 15ppm was because it wasn't 10, but it wasn't quite 20 either. Well now it looks like it may finally be around 10...but it's hard to tell. My skimmer is still working great. Pulling out a lot more than it ever did with BP (in one day). Enough that I must clean it once a day or more (average about once a week with BP).
so far so good.
no change.
BUT. I too am using an API...and yes the 5 and 10 look very similar. The only was I was saying that I was at 15ppm was because it wasn't 10, but it wasn't quite 20 either. Well now it looks like it may finally be around 10...but it's hard to tell. My skimmer is still working great. Pulling out a lot more than it ever did with BP (in one day). Enough that I must clean it once a day or more (average about once a week with BP).
so far so good.
Ok, PH3B. C4H6O2 - 192. A little heavy than starch. So 900 ml pellets ~ 900 ml of rice.
But the main question is, how to compare it decomposing speed.
Acrotrdco
New member
Ok, PH3B. C4H6O2 - 192. A little heavy than starch. So 900 ml pellets ~ 900 ml of rice.
But the main question is, how to compare it decomposing speed.
It's not about the weight but starch content. Granular starch is almost 100% starch but not so for PHA, PCL and PLA.
I wouldn't recommend people experimenting granular starch to use more than 100ml per 100 gallon water to start with.
icycoral
I glue animals to rocks
Someone else using API test kits you must feel my frustration. They aren't that bad just not super precise you get a feel for them and how to interpret the results. You should post a pic man. Btw what does your skimmate look like. Cell phone pics count, that's all I have to work with lol. Keep the updates coming. My only regret was not taking a bunch of pics for a before and after like kk did. It would be nice to compare my corals a week ago to today. I think I'm gonna take pics today to compare on the long term.
Acrotrdco
New member
If you can't find a Hanna at least get a Salifert test kit.
Testing PO4 between 0 and 0.25 is so pointless as you need to aim for 0.03 ppm PO4 and even 0.06 is too high already.
In fact the Hanna HI736 PO4 tester is now becoming available (ultra low range) and it's relatively cheap making it the ideal test kit to have for PO4 measurement.
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