NanoReeferZ
New member
That is awsome!
My Ultimate Multi Mantis System(s)
- Thread starter Kharn
- Start date
Kharn
MANTISMAN
Here are the fish that I recently acquired unfortunately I learned a hard lesson...firstly my Live Food tank is currently under maintenance so I couldn't put the latest batch of live food in it...which meant the next (only) available 'safe haven' for them is within STAND C (still 2 vacant compartments for large spearers) the few large fish I capture (5inch+) went down in the bottom tank and are doing fine although being to scared to venture towards the middle of the tank...where the Leviathan sits (L.maculata).
The smallest and largest cluster (about 15+ fish) went into the Top Tank of STAND C alongside Morgoths half (L.sulcata). Here is where I paid a price...many of the fish were very small and could either squeeze through the divider or pass along side it...and a few did (3) all 3 were instantly taken by the very hungry spearer Morgoth unfortunately no footage is provided here...and that is what made me sad, nonetheless I did get crazy footage of Morgoth in High Speed literally impaling a larger fish you see the raptorial appendages dactyl tip go through the fish entirely.
But first and before I made that film I had to move the smaller fish out of Morgoths tank and into the next best safe haven....originally I thought of the Juggernaut or the Krakens compartment but with the formers tank the fish could be hard to capture and hide easily and in the latters case...well the younger small O.scyllarus would likely bring down the small fish...
Next best idea I had was Minos...(L.colemani) even though a spearer I already knew (and feared) that he was timid...never having witnessed or captured him truly predating and hunting live food...and with his compartment being the next largest in line I thought why not...to boost my courage I thought that it might be the chance for the smaller spearer to really (in a lazy manner) be able to capture some live food due to the sheer opportunity of volume...I was rite
either through fear and striking in a scared/defensive manner or through actual predation he finally manage to catch kill and consume a live fish again unfortunately due to my paranoia of wanting to jeep him under dark conditions there was nothing to film...
Here are the cluster of fish all schooling together with the Minos in the back ground within his 'dug out' trench.
These fish must be stupid or something...even though they are schooling they hover about and around the much larger then them spearer...he has taken at least 1 of them as a head has been found and removed.
More to come Morgoths vid inc
The smallest and largest cluster (about 15+ fish) went into the Top Tank of STAND C alongside Morgoths half (L.sulcata). Here is where I paid a price...many of the fish were very small and could either squeeze through the divider or pass along side it...and a few did (3) all 3 were instantly taken by the very hungry spearer Morgoth unfortunately no footage is provided here...and that is what made me sad, nonetheless I did get crazy footage of Morgoth in High Speed literally impaling a larger fish you see the raptorial appendages dactyl tip go through the fish entirely.
But first and before I made that film I had to move the smaller fish out of Morgoths tank and into the next best safe haven....originally I thought of the Juggernaut or the Krakens compartment but with the formers tank the fish could be hard to capture and hide easily and in the latters case...well the younger small O.scyllarus would likely bring down the small fish...
Next best idea I had was Minos...(L.colemani) even though a spearer I already knew (and feared) that he was timid...never having witnessed or captured him truly predating and hunting live food...and with his compartment being the next largest in line I thought why not...to boost my courage I thought that it might be the chance for the smaller spearer to really (in a lazy manner) be able to capture some live food due to the sheer opportunity of volume...I was rite
either through fear and striking in a scared/defensive manner or through actual predation he finally manage to catch kill and consume a live fish again unfortunately due to my paranoia of wanting to jeep him under dark conditions there was nothing to film...Here are the cluster of fish all schooling together with the Minos in the back ground within his 'dug out' trench.
These fish must be stupid or something...even though they are schooling they hover about and around the much larger then them spearer...he has taken at least 1 of them as a head has been found and removed.
More to come Morgoths vid inc
Kharn
MANTISMAN
Here is the High Speed (400FPS) Slow Motion video of Morgoth impaling the prey...
1080p capability (low res... keep screen small for good quality).
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0T2ZxL4q8vI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Hope you enjoy
1080p capability (low res... keep screen small for good quality).
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0T2ZxL4q8vI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Hope you enjoy
Bluemon
Member
I found someone with a similarly colored Smithii!
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245076
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266915&highlight=ternatensis
And Kharn, how active are your ternatensis? I think i might be getting one.
Are they colorful enough? More than smithii's?
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245076
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266915&highlight=ternatensis
And Kharn, how active are your ternatensis? I think i might be getting one.
Are they colorful enough? More than smithii's?
Kharn
MANTISMAN
I may or may not of now been officially kicked out of all Australian forums where I once called my 'HQ'...one of the prominent members on my last Australian based forum has spoken up about my pictures/footage.
Have you considered the ethics of feeding live animals to these captive mantis-shrimp (particularly the silver scats pictured above and other vertebrate species)? Do you have them feeding on pre-killed animals? In my experience, most of the mantis shrimp readily accept pre-killed foods once used to them. What I see in this thread is similar to the "romans throwing christians in to the lions for pleasure".
The Australian Ethic Committe (AEC) requires scientists to rigorously justify and defend such use of animals and works to ensure that they do not suffer. While I appreciated that your work is not bound by the constrinats of the AEC, I would think it to be humane to reduce animals suffereing whenever we can, to whichever species, even if they are common vertebrates or invertebrates. I think in this thread the point has been made that the Mantis shrimp are very effective at what they do. And I also think it unnesecary to continue to derive pleasure from watching other species killed/mamed for the pleasure of enjoyment when viable alternatives exist.
I think it wise that you read through the AEC guidelines regarding the humane treatment for fish.
I'm not sure how to respond...
Have you considered the ethics of feeding live animals to these captive mantis-shrimp (particularly the silver scats pictured above and other vertebrate species)? Do you have them feeding on pre-killed animals? In my experience, most of the mantis shrimp readily accept pre-killed foods once used to them. What I see in this thread is similar to the "romans throwing christians in to the lions for pleasure".
The Australian Ethic Committe (AEC) requires scientists to rigorously justify and defend such use of animals and works to ensure that they do not suffer. While I appreciated that your work is not bound by the constrinats of the AEC, I would think it to be humane to reduce animals suffereing whenever we can, to whichever species, even if they are common vertebrates or invertebrates. I think in this thread the point has been made that the Mantis shrimp are very effective at what they do. And I also think it unnesecary to continue to derive pleasure from watching other species killed/mamed for the pleasure of enjoyment when viable alternatives exist.
I think it wise that you read through the AEC guidelines regarding the humane treatment for fish.
I'm not sure how to respond...
nmotz
Active member
PAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....dude that is hillarious. Oh let me respond for you! haha, j/k, but is this guy serious? Humane treatment of animals? By his logic we should be patrolling the ocean making sure that mantid's don't kill anything that isn't already dead! Ridiculous. It's an animal. Animals eat other animals, that's just the way it is.
In all seriousness though, I would approach it from a health perspective. You could say something about how they need to practice catching and eating live food because that's the only way to keep them in pristine shape. Frozen food is low on nutrients and doesn't require the animal to exercise his raptorial appendages, which can be a problem in captivity.
We here at reef central thoroughly enjoy your videos, so you can always just post them here.
In all seriousness though, I would approach it from a health perspective. You could say something about how they need to practice catching and eating live food because that's the only way to keep them in pristine shape. Frozen food is low on nutrients and doesn't require the animal to exercise his raptorial appendages, which can be a problem in captivity.
We here at reef central thoroughly enjoy your videos, so you can always just post them here.
NanoReeferZ
New member
Can you post the guidelines here or in a link for us to see?
Islandoftiki
New member
I don't know, that seems a little over the top to me. I personally don't feed live foods because my fiance doesn't like the idea. My mantis occasionally takes a snail here or there, but that's just life, and you need to have some level of clean-up crew.
I noticed the other day that one of my hermit crabs killed a bumblebee snail and took it's shell. Same thing. The ocean is a brutal nasty place to live. Things get eaten.
Is it cruel to feed live mysis shrimp to a fish? Why do they sell feeder goldfish at Petco?
It would be one thing if you were pulling the legs off of emerald crabs and videotaping them slowly dying. I don't think anyone would dispute that to be cruel, but this is totally different, IMO. This is watching nature in action. This is how stomatopods capture prey and eat it.
I think feeding live foods to mantis shrimp is good for them mentally and physically. I don't think they're cruel in the way they dispatch prey. In fact, I think it's an amazing method that you rarely see in the animal kingdom. I've never seen a mantis shrimp attack prey with the intention to be cruel and hurt it and not eat it.
I understand their point, but I don't think it's quite so black and white.
I noticed the other day that one of my hermit crabs killed a bumblebee snail and took it's shell. Same thing. The ocean is a brutal nasty place to live. Things get eaten.
Is it cruel to feed live mysis shrimp to a fish? Why do they sell feeder goldfish at Petco?
It would be one thing if you were pulling the legs off of emerald crabs and videotaping them slowly dying. I don't think anyone would dispute that to be cruel, but this is totally different, IMO. This is watching nature in action. This is how stomatopods capture prey and eat it.
I think feeding live foods to mantis shrimp is good for them mentally and physically. I don't think they're cruel in the way they dispatch prey. In fact, I think it's an amazing method that you rarely see in the animal kingdom. I've never seen a mantis shrimp attack prey with the intention to be cruel and hurt it and not eat it.
I understand their point, but I don't think it's quite so black and white.
Islandoftiki
New member
I'm sitting here watching my coworker prepare some fishing tackle (yeah, it's a slow day) and thinking to myself that if this person thinks feeding mantis shrimp live food is inhumane, what about a sport like fishing?
Let's see... You ensnare a fish through it's jaw with a sharp hook and proceed to reel the confused and frightened fish in with a long protracted struggle that inevitably results in a fairly good size wound to the fish's mouth (sometimes the hook goes through the eye). Then you either tear the hook back out of it's mouth and throw it back in the water or you toss it in a holding tank and later bash the fish over the head with a blunt object (while it's suffocating out of the water) until it stops moving enough that you can cut it's guys out (hopefully it's truly dead at that point).
I don't know... I think a mantis shrimp doing it's normal natural feeding thing is a lot more humane than one of the world's most popular sports.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud and adding some perspective.
Let's see... You ensnare a fish through it's jaw with a sharp hook and proceed to reel the confused and frightened fish in with a long protracted struggle that inevitably results in a fairly good size wound to the fish's mouth (sometimes the hook goes through the eye). Then you either tear the hook back out of it's mouth and throw it back in the water or you toss it in a holding tank and later bash the fish over the head with a blunt object (while it's suffocating out of the water) until it stops moving enough that you can cut it's guys out (hopefully it's truly dead at that point).
I don't know... I think a mantis shrimp doing it's normal natural feeding thing is a lot more humane than one of the world's most popular sports.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud and adding some perspective.
The live food issue is a real one. In my case I had a large reptile breeding program and retail shop. We always used pre killed food- you dont want 1000$snakes eye bitten out by a 1$ mouse! We did have people complain about us (humanely) killing mice and rats, instead of letting the snakes do it themselves. So it goes both ways. But I do know in england and Aus- they are particularly sensitive about feeding live food.
Islandoftiki
New member
Well, basically.
So, you buy frozen scalops or shrimp at Costco or the grocery store; it's obviously dead. Somehow it had to be made into non-living form. You didn't see it die, you don't know how it died, therefore it's humane, right? Probably not. Who knows what collateral damage was caused by the harvesting of these creatures.
We could debate this from a thousand different angles. And we'll find huge disparities in every person's opinion of what is moral and right. Heck, even Disney forced a bunch of lemmings off a cliff to make an engaging video documentary. Now that's seriously not kosher.
I support your choice to feed live foods to your mantis, and at the same time, I choose to feed mine with frozen seafood enriched with selcon. Both are valid choices.
Again, nobody would question feeding live brine shrimp. Why is a brine shrimp less valuable than a larger shrimp, fish, or clam? During the feeding process, a brine shrimp might be maimed and die a slow unhappy death. Nobody cares.
Islandoftiki
New member
Oh, and by the way, the corn those chips were made from is GMO and it's destroying the environment.
Hehe.
avandss
I'm hooked
Kharn
MANTISMAN
It's a delicate subject simply because the law is 'clear cut'...
It is illegal to feed/sell live animals for the purpose of them being preyed upon and consumed by another animal.
Goldfish recently got banned/reinforced and now pet stores here are not allowed to legally sell them as goldfish, pet stores will also refuse to sell a person (myself) a live animal if they have a strong feeling that it will be fed to another creature.
My LFS recently picked up on (through the talking of my friend that works there) that I am (was now) purchasing cheap live fish from the store in bulk supply for the sole purpose of feeding them to my stomatopods, the manage confronted me and told me that she has instructed the staff to not sell me any live creature (besides coral, either way, I took it hard and have not been back).
It's unfortunate simply because the only people that actually kick up a fuss about this on the local (Aus) forums lay out (private) threats about sending my footage to the government for them to 'deal with'.
So I am in 1 way just making my grave deeper and deeper with each video I make and allowing more and more evidence of my 'animal cruelty' to be put forward.
I have not responded to this latest 'attack' I have not updated that thread yet either...to make matters worse this particular individual not only has in depth stomatopod knowledge (having sold me 4 of my first...Adam & Eve (G.smithii) / Minnie & Maximus (G.graphurus)...), he has also been somewhat the only person on that forum that continues to 'challenge' me on my stomatopod presentations/posts, all my information given is either first hand watched/learned experience or something literally copy and pasted direct from someone like Dr.Caldwell and other figure heads of the stomatopod research world.
It's the very very few that as always, ruin it for the rest...
It is illegal to feed/sell live animals for the purpose of them being preyed upon and consumed by another animal.
Goldfish recently got banned/reinforced and now pet stores here are not allowed to legally sell them as goldfish, pet stores will also refuse to sell a person (myself) a live animal if they have a strong feeling that it will be fed to another creature.
My LFS recently picked up on (through the talking of my friend that works there) that I am (was now) purchasing cheap live fish from the store in bulk supply for the sole purpose of feeding them to my stomatopods, the manage confronted me and told me that she has instructed the staff to not sell me any live creature (besides coral, either way, I took it hard and have not been back).
It's unfortunate simply because the only people that actually kick up a fuss about this on the local (Aus) forums lay out (private) threats about sending my footage to the government for them to 'deal with'.
So I am in 1 way just making my grave deeper and deeper with each video I make and allowing more and more evidence of my 'animal cruelty' to be put forward.
I have not responded to this latest 'attack' I have not updated that thread yet either...to make matters worse this particular individual not only has in depth stomatopod knowledge (having sold me 4 of my first...Adam & Eve (G.smithii) / Minnie & Maximus (G.graphurus)...), he has also been somewhat the only person on that forum that continues to 'challenge' me on my stomatopod presentations/posts, all my information given is either first hand watched/learned experience or something literally copy and pasted direct from someone like Dr.Caldwell and other figure heads of the stomatopod research world.
It's the very very few that as always, ruin it for the rest...
Kharn
MANTISMAN
Here are a few pictures as well...
Usually I keep a 'window' covered with tape to help keep it dark and hope to make the inhabitant more comfortable within which intern I hope that they not cover up the window...Morgoth (L.sulcata) has done this, what was a small window is now a large 6inch+ 2inch high window allowing for some great footage.
Here Morgoth has dragged the 'mono' that he impaled to the bottom of the burrow, there is no escape at this point...
A disturbing yet interesting shot of the 'mono' before Morgoth took it further back and out of the cameras reach...
Random shot of Nicole (G.ternatensis) I think she has got some PMS or something, quite angry these last couple days.
Finally someone that I had started to give up on...after 3-4weeks of not showing...Adam (G.smithii) has returned, I did what I should of done after week 1, I moved some rock to find him, within moving the large stone a few 'cm', an angry Adam popped up and threatened me with all his tiny might.
More to come, got some 'last moments' film footage of Morgoth & the 'mono'.
Usually I keep a 'window' covered with tape to help keep it dark and hope to make the inhabitant more comfortable within which intern I hope that they not cover up the window...Morgoth (L.sulcata) has done this, what was a small window is now a large 6inch+ 2inch high window allowing for some great footage.
Here Morgoth has dragged the 'mono' that he impaled to the bottom of the burrow, there is no escape at this point...
A disturbing yet interesting shot of the 'mono' before Morgoth took it further back and out of the cameras reach...
Random shot of Nicole (G.ternatensis) I think she has got some PMS or something, quite angry these last couple days.
Finally someone that I had started to give up on...after 3-4weeks of not showing...Adam (G.smithii) has returned, I did what I should of done after week 1, I moved some rock to find him, within moving the large stone a few 'cm', an angry Adam popped up and threatened me with all his tiny might.
More to come, got some 'last moments' film footage of Morgoth & the 'mono'.
Kharn
MANTISMAN
I will not stay low...lol either case I pulled the pin on the forum and am petitioning to have the 43page thread removed, It's now exclusively for ReefCentral & Facebook.
As for my G.ternatensis they are similar to G.smithii, quite active and interactive, like to dish out threats, their colorful yeah but they are also still quite small (both less then 2inchs)...I'd still never recommend them simply because of the collection process in the wild...
When stores start to see people will buy this 'colorful mantis' they may start to place it on their 'lists' to be collected and this is where the real damage will be done on much larger scales...
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