cherubfish pair
New member
Scej12,
What is your lanthanum chloride setup like?
What is your lanthanum chloride setup like?
N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing) - Split
- Thread starter tntneon
- Start date
Just a simple jury-rig consisting of a maxijet 600 which pumps a slow feed up to an I.O. pail rigged with a drain which feeds directly into my skimmer. I fit a rio pump output nozzle (the one with the venturi port) onto the suction side of the maxijet 600 so that I can attach a feed line from a LaCl3 dosing jug (approx 1:100 mix w/ RO/DI). In this way I was able to use the maxijet to pull in LaCl3 and mix it with the tank water before being delivered to the I.O settling pail. I posted some pics on the LaCl3 thread here.
The system worked okay with one main inconvenience - I have to pull apart the powerhead and attached venturi to clean out the LaPO4 precipitate every couple of weeks. The lanthanum chloride mix that I have is being fed at a rate of about 1 drop per 20 seconds constantly; and over time the precipitate blocks up the venturi right at the point it mixes with system water. Nonetheless it works well enough to manage years of stored phosphate, so I'll have to design a proper reactor to deal with the precipitate plugging up at the point of entry.
Regards,
Sheldon
The system worked okay with one main inconvenience - I have to pull apart the powerhead and attached venturi to clean out the LaPO4 precipitate every couple of weeks. The lanthanum chloride mix that I have is being fed at a rate of about 1 drop per 20 seconds constantly; and over time the precipitate blocks up the venturi right at the point it mixes with system water. Nonetheless it works well enough to manage years of stored phosphate, so I'll have to design a proper reactor to deal with the precipitate plugging up at the point of entry.
Regards,
Sheldon
reeftivo
Skim junkie
Thanks,
I've been using my little battery operated eheim sludge extractor to just sweep the top 1/4 inch of the sand a couple times a week. when I use the eheim I always get a good amount of junk in the screen filter. I also siphon and baste my rock weekly when doing Wc's. I try not to disturb the lower levels of the sand and concentrate on the surface only.
Keeping up the good fight
Tivo
reeftivo
Skim junkie
Thanks sheldon!
Yes, I use carbon but I was using it passively.The way I was using it when I was running zeovit. I have since started running the carbon in my TLF reactor and maybe that's what is starting to help. My pH is always 8.3 to 8.4 so hopefully the combination will continue to help!
I could deal with the cyano since it isn't affecting the animals at all, but it always looks so dirty to me and thats why I can't stand the stuff. even in little patches:mad2:
Tivo
I would just qiualify that statement that the solids are going to be mostly lanthanum carbonate, not lanthanum phosphate, although there will be small amounts of the latter.
Yeah I'm beginning to think that passive carbon use on cyano-feeding forms of carbon dosing (i.e. vodka; bp) might not be enough. I could swear that I could exhaust a full gallon of carbon within a week on a 450 gallon system. This is why I started to worry about affecting tangs with HLLE.
Since I reunited with my formerly aggressive carbon routine, the cyano has completely cleared off the sand, but is still hanging onto the rocks which I'm resisting blowing off until i get my magnesium supply restocked... but I literally went from matted substrate to clean substrate within a week and a half of activated carbon bombardment. Since the first gallon (jug) of black diamond activated carbon appeared to have a positive result, I went ahead and added a second jug a week later, as I'm sure the first was probably pretty close to being exhausted by then (the water was quite yellow prior).
My activated carbon is in mesh bags but when I finally get around to rejigging the filtration system, I'll likely run the carbon in a reactor that drains directly into a skimmer as a measure to address the HLLE concern.
Let me know how it goes though, I'm betting that when you get your DOCs down, the cyano will clear. Just keep in mind that the level of DOCs that result from bp carbon dosing is likely high enough to exhaust your activated carbon much quicker than normal application.
Regards,
Sheldon
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I would just qiualify that statement that the solids are going to be mostly lanthanum carbonate, not lanthanum phosphate, although there will be small amounts of the latter.
Thanks Randy! Good to know.
Sheldon
reeftivo
Skim junkie
Awsome Sheldon!
Good info and the carbon seems to be limiting the cyano growth so far. A day and a half after switching from passive to the reactor and the sand is still looking good. I thought for sure when I went home for lunch that I would start seeing signs of growth again but it looks the same. There are only small signs of light brown cyano in areas where I could not see when siphoning last. Nothing like the dark red I was getting before!
I was using the KZ carbon passively but since going with the pellets, I've been using kent reef carbon. Much cheaper and seems to work well enough.
I was changing out the carbon monthly with zeovit. Do you think I should step that up to bi-monthly?
Looks like there's hope afterall
Tivo
I would do a Bucket-Test... i.e. take a white pail of system water and compare it (colour-wise) to the same colour pail of RO/DI water. the latter should be absolutely clear or at-least bluish in hue. If your tank water is not close to your reference colour, I'd interpret that as you having some visible organics dissolved in your system.... and therefore refresh your carbon.
It has been said that vinegar unlike many of the other carbon dosing strategies seems to least (or not-at-all) feed cyanobacteria. I'm currently testing my hypothesis that if we can limit DOCs by way of heavy activated carbon filtration (or even ozone), then we might be able to deal with the cyano-breeding potential of the other forms of carbon dosing.... But again I should emphasize that it should be a multi-pronged approach consisting of addressing Nutrients; pH; Flow; & DOCs.
But to answer your question as to carbon frequency, I would say that should be determined (at least initially) by guaging your system by way of a Bucket-Test.
Let us all know how it turns out!
Regards,
Sheldon
It has been said that vinegar unlike many of the other carbon dosing strategies seems to least (or not-at-all) feed cyanobacteria. I'm currently testing my hypothesis that if we can limit DOCs by way of heavy activated carbon filtration (or even ozone), then we might be able to deal with the cyano-breeding potential of the other forms of carbon dosing.... But again I should emphasize that it should be a multi-pronged approach consisting of addressing Nutrients; pH; Flow; & DOCs.
But to answer your question as to carbon frequency, I would say that should be determined (at least initially) by guaging your system by way of a Bucket-Test.
Let us all know how it turns out!
Regards,
Sheldon
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reeftivo
Skim junkie
update;
was still battling cyano and did the bucket test suggested by Sheldon.
No distinguishable color difference using two white 1 gallon open top pails. I tested twice. I had to go out of town for a week so I decide to take the reactor off line before I left and figure things out when I returned. Shortly before I left, I started a kalk/vinegar batch to be dosed while I was gone to keep perams somewhat stable until I returned. When I got home the Cyano was gone.
HMMM?
I am dosing 2tsp of kalk/40ml of vinegar per gallon of RO/DI and dosing 5ml 8 times a day with my novatec pump. I have an aqua house pump that I will soon get online but for now I'm in no hurry to resume the pellets.
was still battling cyano and did the bucket test suggested by Sheldon.
No distinguishable color difference using two white 1 gallon open top pails. I tested twice. I had to go out of town for a week so I decide to take the reactor off line before I left and figure things out when I returned. Shortly before I left, I started a kalk/vinegar batch to be dosed while I was gone to keep perams somewhat stable until I returned. When I got home the Cyano was gone.
HMMM?
I am dosing 2tsp of kalk/40ml of vinegar per gallon of RO/DI and dosing 5ml 8 times a day with my novatec pump. I have an aqua house pump that I will soon get online but for now I'm in no hurry to resume the pellets.
hey all,
i switched to bio bellets about 5+ weeks ago... i started with about 2.5 nitrates and about .3 phosphates...
before switching i had some cyano issues so i have been trying to reduce the phosphates with gfo...currently I'm down to .12
currently I'm doing a 3 day lights out to kill off the cyano and wet skim...
i have not seen any change of nitrates they are still 2.5...so that makes me think the pellets haven't kicked in yet.... agree?
how do you get the pellets going when you start with relatively low numbers???
i have 2 liters of vertex pellets in the system.
i switched to bio bellets about 5+ weeks ago... i started with about 2.5 nitrates and about .3 phosphates...
before switching i had some cyano issues so i have been trying to reduce the phosphates with gfo...currently I'm down to .12
currently I'm doing a 3 day lights out to kill off the cyano and wet skim...
i have not seen any change of nitrates they are still 2.5...so that makes me think the pellets haven't kicked in yet.... agree?
how do you get the pellets going when you start with relatively low numbers???
i have 2 liters of vertex pellets in the system.
reeftivo
Skim junkie
With the pellet reactor I was feeding spectrum pellets for the fish and a 1/2 cube of mix reef (cyclo,rotifer,mysis etc.) daily. While out, I left my wife to the task and only had her give spectrum pellets and a couple drops of pohls CV daily.
Tivo
reeftivo
Skim junkie
may want to try some MB7 or zeobac mixed with tank water in a syringe injected directly into the reactor pump intake. I did 1 drop of zeobac with a pipette into the pump every other day and after two weeks my trates started dropping.
Couldn't hurt to try some bac or MB7.
reeftivo
Skim junkie
LOL, Not that I didn't trust my wife but feeding was definately lower! I'm sure that helped.
The Mrs. has never taken much of an interest in anything aquatic (sadly) but she seemed to do a good job with the feeding while I was gone.
I reduced my feedings in a similar manner with the pellets in hopes to combat the cyano but my corals (especially the LPS) reacted with little to no extension. They just puckered up and were not happy and the cyano still didn't receed.
For now I'm going to stay with the kalk/vinegar dosing and see how that progresses.
Tivo
The Mrs. has never taken much of an interest in anything aquatic (sadly) but she seemed to do a good job with the feeding while I was gone.
I reduced my feedings in a similar manner with the pellets in hopes to combat the cyano but my corals (especially the LPS) reacted with little to no extension. They just puckered up and were not happy and the cyano still didn't receed.
For now I'm going to stay with the kalk/vinegar dosing and see how that progresses.
Tivo
I am going to re-post something I posted in another thread, but it should probably be posted here as well. My experience with NP bio-pellets since June or July of 2010.
Something to think about with pellets. The bacteria colonize the surface of the pellet and use the carbon as food along with NO3 and PO4, this we know. What happens when you tumble the pellets too much? They collide with each other, slough off the bacteria that is trying to consume the pellet and the friction will wear down the pellets, and that little bit of pellet that is ground off floats freely in the aquarium, where it settles and is consumed by bacteria in the tank, not just in the reactor. White bacteria slime in your tank anyone?
The whole idea of tumbling pellets got started by people being concerned by anoxic areas in the reactor. Yet many people initially just hung them in the sump in a mesh bag, and the guy who first started using this product did it in an open top canister. Mfg's grabbed onto the tumbling thing and started building reactors that did just that. But no where was it ever shown that it was needed. Things just morph and turn into what they are, with nothing to back them up.
I have been using pellets since June or July of 2010, I have had a fast tumble, a slow tumble and no tumble. What I have noticed is that with a fast tumble the pellets wear down quickly, but do not lower nutrients any better than a slow tumble, and the last thing I tried was just having them in a canister filter where they did not tumble at all. They worked the same and I did not have to have as many pellets to do the same job.
There was a study where pellets ( a different composition but still a carbon source) were put into varying sizes of sand, large and small, no tumble, just pushed into the substrate, and they did the job, they worked better this way with large grain sand. I am not ready to push pellets into my sand, or run them in a sand filter, but the point is that a tumbling reactor isn't needed, and if friction is truly wearing them down and sloughing off the bacteria from the collision of the pellets to each other then that is not a good thing.
I do not know everything about these pellets, and in fact no one does, these are not researched and produced for the aquarium market, so we have to learn about them as we go. We have let manufactures of acrylic tubes dictate to us how pellets are to be used, but in reality they just grabbed onto what people were doing in the beginning with pellets and have created their own market for pellet reactors, and have people just starting with them convinced that tumbling reactors are the right way to use pellets. It is only right for the mfg's as they can sell overpriced acrylic tubes.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread and read the whole thing, you will see what I am saying. There are many ways to use pellets, and based on my own experience, tumbling reactors are not the best way. YMMV
FWIW, I have never had a bacterial slime issue, never had a bacteria bloom but I did, in the beginning, use too many pellets for my bio-load and stripped the water of NO3 and PO4, stripped so much that chaeto dissolved and I only had to clean my glass every week or two, and it wasn't algae, just bio-film that collects on glass. After cutting down the quantity of pellets greatly and slowing the flow in my home made reactor I was able to grow chaeto again and the tank looked much better. I almost killed my corals by stripping too much out of the water. At this point I began playing with different ways to use pellets, I stopped trying to get a tumble, just a slight movement of the pellets, and then took them offline for a while. When I put them back, I just tossed a handful into the bottom of my canister filter that I run carbon and GFO in. Once again they went to work and kept my nutrients in check. They do not tumble at all in the canister, but they do have good water flow over them.
Something to think about.
Something to think about with pellets. The bacteria colonize the surface of the pellet and use the carbon as food along with NO3 and PO4, this we know. What happens when you tumble the pellets too much? They collide with each other, slough off the bacteria that is trying to consume the pellet and the friction will wear down the pellets, and that little bit of pellet that is ground off floats freely in the aquarium, where it settles and is consumed by bacteria in the tank, not just in the reactor. White bacteria slime in your tank anyone?
The whole idea of tumbling pellets got started by people being concerned by anoxic areas in the reactor. Yet many people initially just hung them in the sump in a mesh bag, and the guy who first started using this product did it in an open top canister. Mfg's grabbed onto the tumbling thing and started building reactors that did just that. But no where was it ever shown that it was needed. Things just morph and turn into what they are, with nothing to back them up.
I have been using pellets since June or July of 2010, I have had a fast tumble, a slow tumble and no tumble. What I have noticed is that with a fast tumble the pellets wear down quickly, but do not lower nutrients any better than a slow tumble, and the last thing I tried was just having them in a canister filter where they did not tumble at all. They worked the same and I did not have to have as many pellets to do the same job.
There was a study where pellets ( a different composition but still a carbon source) were put into varying sizes of sand, large and small, no tumble, just pushed into the substrate, and they did the job, they worked better this way with large grain sand. I am not ready to push pellets into my sand, or run them in a sand filter, but the point is that a tumbling reactor isn't needed, and if friction is truly wearing them down and sloughing off the bacteria from the collision of the pellets to each other then that is not a good thing.
I do not know everything about these pellets, and in fact no one does, these are not researched and produced for the aquarium market, so we have to learn about them as we go. We have let manufactures of acrylic tubes dictate to us how pellets are to be used, but in reality they just grabbed onto what people were doing in the beginning with pellets and have created their own market for pellet reactors, and have people just starting with them convinced that tumbling reactors are the right way to use pellets. It is only right for the mfg's as they can sell overpriced acrylic tubes.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread and read the whole thing, you will see what I am saying. There are many ways to use pellets, and based on my own experience, tumbling reactors are not the best way. YMMV
FWIW, I have never had a bacterial slime issue, never had a bacteria bloom but I did, in the beginning, use too many pellets for my bio-load and stripped the water of NO3 and PO4, stripped so much that chaeto dissolved and I only had to clean my glass every week or two, and it wasn't algae, just bio-film that collects on glass. After cutting down the quantity of pellets greatly and slowing the flow in my home made reactor I was able to grow chaeto again and the tank looked much better. I almost killed my corals by stripping too much out of the water. At this point I began playing with different ways to use pellets, I stopped trying to get a tumble, just a slight movement of the pellets, and then took them offline for a while. When I put them back, I just tossed a handful into the bottom of my canister filter that I run carbon and GFO in. Once again they went to work and kept my nutrients in check. They do not tumble at all in the canister, but they do have good water flow over them.
Something to think about.
cherubfish pair
New member
Iteresting observations. Could you get a picture of some chipped up pellets?I am going to re-post something I posted in another thread, but it should probably be posted here as well. My experience with NP bio-pellets since June or July of 2010.
Something to think about with pellets. The bacteria colonize the surface of the pellet and use the carbon as food along with NO3 and PO4, this we know. What happens when you tumble the pellets too much? They collide with each other, slough off the bacteria that is trying to consume the pellet and the friction will wear down the pellets, and that little bit of pellet that is ground off floats freely in the aquarium, where it settles and is consumed by bacteria in the tank, not just in the reactor. White bacteria slime in your tank anyone?
The whole idea of tumbling pellets got started by people being concerned by anoxic areas in the reactor. Yet many people initially just hung them in the sump in a mesh bag, and the guy who first started using this product did it in an open top canister. Mfg's grabbed onto the tumbling thing and started building reactors that did just that. But no where was it ever shown that it was needed. Things just morph and turn into what they are, with nothing to back them up.
I have been using pellets since June or July of 2010, I have had a fast tumble, a slow tumble and no tumble. What I have noticed is that with a fast tumble the pellets wear down quickly, but do not lower nutrients any better than a slow tumble, and the last thing I tried was just having them in a canister filter where they did not tumble at all. They worked the same and I did not have to have as many pellets to do the same job.
There was a study where pellets ( a different composition but still a carbon source) were put into varying sizes of sand, large and small, no tumble, just pushed into the substrate, and they did the job, they worked better this way with large grain sand. I am not ready to push pellets into my sand, or run them in a sand filter, but the point is that a tumbling reactor isn't needed, and if friction is truly wearing them down and sloughing off the bacteria from the collision of the pellets to each other then that is not a good thing.
I do not know everything about these pellets, and in fact no one does, these are not researched and produced for the aquarium market, so we have to learn about them as we go. We have let manufactures of acrylic tubes dictate to us how pellets are to be used, but in reality they just grabbed onto what people were doing in the beginning with pellets and have created their own market for pellet reactors, and have people just starting with them convinced that tumbling reactors are the right way to use pellets. It is only right for the mfg's as they can sell overpriced acrylic tubes.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread and read the whole thing, you will see what I am saying. There are many ways to use pellets, and based on my own experience, tumbling reactors are not the best way. YMMV
FWIW, I have never had a bacterial slime issue, never had a bacteria bloom but I did, in the beginning, use too many pellets for my bio-load and stripped the water of NO3 and PO4, stripped so much that chaeto dissolved and I only had to clean my glass every week or two, and it wasn't algae, just bio-film that collects on glass. After cutting down the quantity of pellets greatly and slowing the flow in my home made reactor I was able to grow chaeto again and the tank looked much better. I almost killed my corals by stripping too much out of the water. At this point I began playing with different ways to use pellets, I stopped trying to get a tumble, just a slight movement of the pellets, and then took them offline for a while. When I put them back, I just tossed a handful into the bottom of my canister filter that I run carbon and GFO in. Once again they went to work and kept my nutrients in check. They do not tumble at all in the canister, but they do have good water flow over them.
Something to think about.
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