N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

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others know the numbers better, but it would/will take a lot more n to be consumed before the p is reduced. I think it's like 16 to 1 ratio. (or was it 60?) either way if your N is that low then I don't think you will see results for a while.
 
hmm...you didn't tell me all that before. I would say that they are not working due to lack of nutrients.

I'm a little puzzled as to what you expect the bacteria to "eat" if you still have zero NO3. Your PO4 is also within reason...so there is not much need for the pellets yet.

I would guess that you may get a bloom if you dose that much sugar...but don't quote me on that. Also I would think that it will simply take longer for you to see results since the bacteria don't have any "food" in what appears to sound like a clean tank.

as for the hair algae...I wish I could help more...but I would guess that all the changes are responsible for that.

I dealt with the hair algae problem a couple of pages back. The consensus was that as the nitrates were reduced then the phosphates were drawn out of the rock which caused the outbreak in hair algae
It was also recommended that a phosban reactor be run at the same time as the np pellets when a hair algae bloom developed.

I have to admit I am still mystified by this process of the phosphates being drawn out of the rock---would love to hear an explanation of how this process works
 
Staggeringwade, I'm having similar issues with Vertex pellets. I ran a skimmer, gfo, and chaeto over a miracle mudfuge, and my nitrates were also zero when I added the biopellets. I replaced the gfo with pellets, and I'm noticing darkening corals and a hair algae outbreak. Some corals appear lighter, though, and that's mystifying. Not sure what is going on in there, besides the obvious increase in Cyanobacteria and hair algae.

Starting to wonder if I should go back to the old school methodology :( or maybe add gfo, back into the system.
 
Okay. I started EcoBak six + weeks ago on my 120 gallon reef tank plus 60 gallon sump. I'm currently using 1000ml of product. The recommended amount is 750 ml, which I tried for 4 weeks and nothing was happening so I added the other 250 ml 2 weeks ago and nothing is happening yet.
To summarize as quickly as possible my parameters are as follows.
I do not dose carbon and never have.
Roughly 6" dsb. My nitrates are undetectable thanks to 6-7" sand bed.
I never really knew what my phosphates have been because the drip tests are junk although according to the drip test they were zero (which was likely inaccurate).
I had used a DIY Turf Alage Scrubber for 2 years and I took it off line because they are kind of a PIA to maintain. Plus I had just switched to a new DIY Cree Led light array and It seemed silly to install more energy efficient lighting over the reef aquarium, but run 160+ watts of compact fluorescence to grow algae 24/7.
I recently purchased a hanna phosphate checker and my phosphates were zero before I took the TAS offline.
Now after running the ecobak for 6+ weeks and no turf algae scrubber, my nitrates were zero last week, but my phosphates are now .04 ppm.
I know have a hair algae outbreak from hell.
I am still running GFO and Carbon.
MY alk is 9.8, magnesium is 1200, calcium is 420ish, ph has dropped from 8.2 to 7.9. I think the ph drop was from discontinuing the TAS, because a cooling fan was used to suck heat out of the unit which caused evaporation which was replaced with Kalkwasser. I will add some sort of fan again soon to help raise the PH- was not sure if depressed PH was from biopellets.
I am running a nice euro-reef skimmer with the output of the Next SMR1 biopellet reactor plumbed right into the front of the skimmer input. (I actually used a 1" tee on the front of the skimmer intake and just dropped the biopellet out put tubing down the top of the tee). The BP reactor is ran with a MJ 1200 and the pellets are gently tumbling.
I had read all of Dave On Bass inputs to the biopellet forum and decided to give sugar a try tonight. I will try 4 TBL spoons and see what happens.
FYI-I have a refugium, but macro would never live because of the TAS's ability to clean the water of nutrients so well.
After removal of the TAS I have some macro starting to grow now.
I use RO/DI water.
Sorry this is so long but I was hoping to give a complete detail of my situation so somebody could give me any Idea why the bio pellets are not working for me.
FYI- I never did have a bacterial bloom as happens to nearly everybody else. I had assumed I didn't get a bacterial bloom because my no3 and po4 was both zero when I began.
The reason for wanting to go with biopellets is because the simplicity of pellet carbon dosing, losing the bi-weekly chore of cleaning the TAS screens and saving energy.
I have reduced my energy use from over 1500 watts to less than 400.
Wade

Hi Wade - Are you running a calcium reactor by any chance? Any troubles I've had in the past with Bryopsis or hair algae have backed down once I removed my calcium reactor from operation for a little while.

I realize that if you are dripping Kalk, you might not have a CaCO3 reactor but you did mention that your pH dropped off a little. My point would be to check where your source of CO2 is coming from. In my cases it was my calcium reactor, which I rerouted the output to a skimmer or biotower where available. Somehow you have to purge any excess CO2 out of the system. There were a couple of ideas a page or two back about drawing in fresh skimmer air/ using a CO2 scrubber.

I think the green algae is somehow dependent on CO2, and if you can solve your pH level, you will likely see the GHA retreat as well. It could also have been that your ATS was a huge CO2 processing unit which was a significant part of the CO2 balance in your entire system. Perhaps with that large contributor removed, you have to allow your system to establish a new CO2 processing dynamic between bacteria/coralline/etc... just a supposition at this point.

Regards,

Sheldon
 
I dealt with the hair algae problem a couple of pages back. The consensus was that as the nitrates were reduced then the phosphates were drawn out of the rock which caused the outbreak in hair algae
It was also recommended that a phosban reactor be run at the same time as the np pellets when a hair algae bloom developed.

I have to admit I am still mystified by this process of the phosphates being drawn out of the rock---would love to hear an explanation of how this process works

It's actually just a simple function of higher concentration, to lower concentration (osmosis). As levels in the bulk water decrease, PO4 in the substrates move out to replace them. Since the algae grow on the substrates, they become recipient to the newly liberated food source just as a matter of proximity. PO4 literally has to move past, around and through it to gain access to the bulk water. This of course is an incredibly oversimplified explanation.

DJ
 
Oh I see - I too have just learned something. Thx DJ

It's one of those problems with tanks that have maintained high PO4 levels for a sustained time. The system literally becomes a phosphate sink. Extracting it to near zero levels can be a prolonged hassle because the process becomes so drawn out (pun intended :lol2:).

DJ
 
A friend and colleague passed this post along me. It adds some more perspective to some of the issues of using the pellets


"Just thought id dive on here folks and offer a mix of observations based on research with both medias.

This information is derIved from various sources ive worked with over some time now, some of whom are more than qualified in my opinion to offer reasoning behind the points raised.

Issues commonly encountered:

Excessive clouding of the aquarium and associated risks....(oxygen depletion causing stress in fish, Ph suppression, and bacterial overload of the corals mucus coating)

It appears in some cases that clouding can occur due to bacterial blooms within the main display which are caused by two common factors.

1. An excessive amount of media used initially in the presence of very high free nutrient levels commonly appears to trigger a bacterial bloom on the media that exceeds the skimmers capacity for removal. The excess then ends up being shunted through to the main display where it can (at high levels) use up excessive amounts of oxygen leading to stress in fish, with subsequent drops in Ph..

2. Excessive levels of water-born bacteria can (as well as acting as a food source) also adversely affect some corals that lack the ability to shed this buildup from their surfaces via the mucus coating. Sps corals are very well adapted to such conditions having a higher degree of mucus secreting ability comared to many soft corals. Under high light intensity it may well be the case that some soft corals become so heavily laden with this constant bombardment of bacteria sticking to their surfaces under cloudy conditions that it affects the corals ability to balance out gases produced during photosynthesis leading to bleaching.

Recommendation: The start up dose should be pulled back if you notice excessive clouding at any stage, by removing the media, retaining a smaller amount, and washing and rubbing the remainder under RO to shed and kill off any bacteria before storing it for use later. The higher the initial free nutrient load, the lower the startup dose should be, with approximately 1/2 the recommended minimum dose used in systems with No3 levels between 1-5ppm, and 1/4 of the minimum dose used in systems with No3 above that level. Technically, there is no 'minimum' start up dose beyond that needed to start a slow downward trend in free nutrient levels (if you want to start with 100ml/100gallons, so be it if your sitting at 50ppm N03). As those levels start to fall nearer to the baseline, the dosage can be increased bit by bit to spread the now limited bacterial populations ( nutrient limited) across the larger more affective surface area afforded by the increase in media. (why increase the dose as the levels rise?....well, ill get to that in a minute)

Equally the skimmer must come under the spotlight. The fundamentals of this system rest squarely on the shoulders of the skimmers capacity to remove the bacteria presented to it. If the skimmer is not up to the job (poor quality, poorly designed or simply poorly adjusted) it will have a knock on effect in terms of the ratio of bacteria removed compared to that allowed to pass through to the main system...The main aim is to 'remove' as much bacterial mulm as possible, leaving only traces to make it through to the system as coral food (a poor one at that compared to real zoo-plankton it must be said)...remember it is after all an 'assimilation and export' method not not a conversion method as in nitrification or de-nitrification (although some does occure)....If you are not convinced your skimmer is up to the task, consider an upgrade or place a filter sock on the outlet of the skimmer to catch surplus bacterial mulm. This must however be cleaned once every 7 days without fail to remove these bacteria which will die off after approximately 8 days after exiting the reactor and being deprived of the media as a food source. Once the bacteria die, they release what was previously bound back into solution and the whole process just goes round in a big circle with little if any effect on the free nutrient pool.

The recommended end dose:

As the nutrient pool starts to fall and get nearer natural levels (im not using the words ULNS here ) We are NOT trying to create a nutrient poor desert to the degree that zooxanthallae populations start to die back excessively leading to excessive paling in the corals...what we ARE trying to do, is make way for more food addition in an effort to get closer to the natural environment, where corals and fish can have a much higher degree of daily food availability via the natural pathways of prey capture without building up a surplus nutrient pool.

Corals are supremely adaptable animals because they have the ability to derive nutrients from differing sources and to differing degrees depending on the environment. In nearly all cases we effectively starve our corals in one primary area (that being prey capture) forcing the coral to take advantage of dissolved nutrients and light energy to make up for the deficit. If you take away or lower the background levels of dissolved nutrients to more natural levels you have to make up that deficit in the way of real food for the corals to capture and consume without which the coral lacks the energy and nutrients required to produce protective pigments, mucus coatings, and to fuel further growth. so the aim is to gradually increase feeding as the nutrient levels fall. The recommended surplus volume of media above that required to instigate the initial fall in levels is based on the volume required to offer suitable surface area for future populations that have to keep up with the increased food input and subsequent nutrient input after nitrification and to a degree new higher levels of Po4 input. This is where some medias are deffinately better than others....you cant beat surface area at the end of the day when it comes to a bacterial growth platform...the smaller the media, the more surface area available per liter of media used...

In short....as your free No3/Po4 levels start to fall, gradually increase your feeding so the corals are able to adapt to the shift in nutrient pathways...If you don't, your corals will suffer.....And don't be surprised at how much food you can end up putting in once the system has stabilised and your at your maximum dosage for the system volume. from personal experience the amount can far exceed other methods without the drawbacks of nutrient buildup, but you have to take your time and let the system adjust.

NB: In new systems or those that are already at natural trace levels of No3/Po4 there is no reason why you cant start with a higher or full dose, becouse any bacteria present will already be nutrient limited, so blooms are far less likely.

Time as an indicator of success:

Basically, if your seeing a fall from 50ppm No3 in just a couple of weeks to 5ppm or less its NOT a good thing in reality because your corals wont have time to adapt to the shift in nutrient pathways. What you really want to be looking at is a fall over several months to give both your corals 'and you' a Chance to shift the pathways over. you cannot hope to get a handle on how much to increase feeding by if your levels are falling like a stone because by the time they hit natural levels (sub 0.1ppm NO3 and sub 0.008ppm Po4) which is the point the bacterial populations will become nutrient limited to the degree full deprivation becomes virtually negligible. you wont have had time to gauge if your corals are getting enough food or if they are still falling into energy deprivation. So the main aim is to keep the process as a slow adjustment for both you and your corals.

Bleaching in soft corals and some LPS may also be linked to another factor:

Its been reported on many occasions that an increase in water clarity is encountered as the bacterial mulm acts as a flocculant, binding other material in the process and clayfying the water (not to be confused with carbon). This increase in clarity can cause stress in some soft corals which lack the ability that many SPS have to rapidly produce protective pigments in an effort to combat changes in photo saturation. It may well be the case that increased clarity has simply led to these corals becoming stressed via over saturation or increased UV penetration.

As for claims regarding possible contaminants I can verify that 'NONE' of the bio media brands on the market in the UK at present contain anything that can be of harm to livestock, be that SPS/LPS/or otherwise. There does however seem to be some situations where certain corals have reacted adversely, but there certainly isn't any 'trend' beyond those attributable to the fact that some corals in some situations may suffer stress if the tank conditions are altered drastically within too shorter time frame or adequate measures are not taken on the part of the keeper to make up for the shift in nutrient pathways leaving the coral weak and susceptible to infection or other factors as previously mentioned such as bacterial fouling. Some corals simply dont like being subjected to change which is a game we all play.

Po4 uptake the truth:

For the process to work effectively you need both nitrate and phosphate availability. If one or the other reaches natural levels, it then becomes the limiting factor for the 'whole' process. So its not surprising that some report Po4 or No3 sitting stubbornly in the absence of the other, in which case secondary measures are required, IE water changes in the case of an No3 pool, or Po4 removers in the case of a Po4 pool. In reality, Po4 addition/generation is far higher than NO3 generation in closed systems due to food input, so it will inevitably lead to an imbalance of availability, with No3 usually being the limiting factor, and a surplus Po4 pool to be taken care of. In essence don't remove your Po4 reactors, because it will still be required to take up that surplus input beyond that being assimilated with the available No3 pool...what this process will do is make your Po4 remover last allot longer though. (as the blurb says 'reduces' Po4 and No3')...nobody ever said it does it in perfect balance.


Hopefully this will answer a few questions, but if i can be of any further help then please feel free to ask and i'll offer what input i can when i have time.
__________________

Simon Garratt. o.c.r.d"
 
It's actually just a simple function of higher concentration, to lower concentration (osmosis). As levels in the bulk water decrease, PO4 in the substrates move out to replace them. Since the algae grow on the substrates, they become recipient to the newly liberated food source just as a matter of proximity. PO4 literally has to move past, around and through it to gain access to the bulk water. This of course is an incredibly oversimplified explanation.

DJ

I also received another theory djreef,

In a tank that has had issues with algae in the past it is a matter of competition for nutrients. Previously some algae was able to outcompete other algae for consuming nitrates and phosphates from the water column.
When you run the pellets the nitrates are removed more quickly in the first weeks. This illiminates strains of algae that relied on a high level of those. Now algae that relies on phosphates more and has the capability of extracting them from the calcium/phosphate paste that has accumulated on the reef rock, now can grow uninhibited--hence the outbreaks in bryopsis and or hair algae that were not seen previously in the tank.
 
I decided not to dose sugar as a carbon source, it didn't make sense after more reading. I tested my no3 and it is still undetectable so I can see why bacteria won't colonize the bio pellets.
I have read a little bit on reefcentral in the past about dosing calcium nitrate, but it never applied to me until now.
Would it be wise to dose tiny amounts of no3 until I have a detectible amount of no3 and see if that helps my bio pellets start to do their job?
I also am running my tank with lights off for a couple of days to get the GHA under control.
I will try and tinker tonite and get my ph up again, the calcium reactor depresses it even further.
On thing is for sure, turf algae scrubbers work well, but mine took up way too much space and energy. I may redesign a new TAS unit running cree leds next spring if this bio pellet adventure does not work well.
Thanks for all of the advice!
Wade
 
Hi Wade - Are you running a calcium reactor by any chance? Any troubles I've had in the past with Bryopsis or hair algae have backed down once I removed my calcium reactor from operation for a little while.

I realize that if you are dripping Kalk, you might not have a CaCO3 reactor but you did mention that your pH dropped off a little. My point would be to check where your source of CO2 is coming from. In my cases it was my calcium reactor, which I rerouted the output to a skimmer or biotower where available. Somehow you have to purge any excess CO2 out of the system. There were a couple of ideas a page or two back about drawing in fresh skimmer air/ using a CO2 scrubber.

I am running a lifereef CA reactor. I know this is not the place for this topic but I was told that your not supposed to place the calcium reactor effluent into the skimmer pump intake because the skimmer takes out calcium when it skims the scum? Is that untrue? I live in a small town, and there are no reefers that I am aware of around here, I'm kinda self taught and the internet is so full of poo its hard to believe anything i read.
I do run the effluent into a cup with an air stone, but have always felt that running the effluent into the skimmer was a great idea to get rid of excess CO2. I just have never tested the theory, and actually it was something I was going to try tonite.

I think the green algae is somehow dependent on CO2, and if you can solve your pH level, you will likely see the GHA retreat as well. It could also have been that your ATS was a huge CO2 processing unit which was a significant part of the CO2 balance in your entire system. Perhaps with that large contributor removed, you have to allow your system to establish a new CO2 processing dynamic between bacteria/coralline/etc... just a supposition at this point.

Regards,

Sheldon
 
I also received another theory djreef,

In a tank that has had issues with algae in the past it is a matter of competition for nutrients. Previously some algae was able to outcompete other algae for consuming nitrates and phosphates from the water column.
When you run the pellets the nitrates are removed more quickly in the first weeks. This illiminates strains of algae that relied on a high level of those. Now algae that relies on phosphates more and has the capability of extracting them from the calcium/phosphate paste that has accumulated on the reef rock, now can grow uninhibited--hence the outbreaks in bryopsis and or hair algae that were not seen previously in the tank.

Yea, I know.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17878308&postcount=3089

:D


DJ
 
Thanks for the post it makes some good points. I would also add granulated activated carbon to the skimmer recommendation for organic removal.
It's also worth noting that the pellets are polymers and while there may be no contaminants,per se; the polymers(carbohydrates) will go to monomers( sugars) via anaerobic digestion and monomers of themselves may be harmful to some corals. .

I think both the competition angle and the localized PO4 use angle are plausible as possible causes for nuisance algae of varying species when there nutrients in the water column are lo.

As for PO4 from the rock it can advantage the algae in at least a few of forms that I can think of:
If the rock has loosely bound(not buried in a calcium carbonate crystal) PO4 on the surface the algae may absorb it;

or, the PO4 may equilibrate into the water column if the surrounding water is lower in PO4 than the rock surface and algae may absorb it in another location .

If the rock can be isolated in 0 to near zero PO4 water and no PO4 shows up in the water after a few days ,I see no reason to think it will leach in our tank later on unless localized ph shifts occur as may be induced by bacterial activity.

Also ,detritus on the rock may release inorganic phosphate as it breaks down.
 
Thanks for the post it makes some good points. I would also add granulated activated carbon to the skimmer recommendation for organic removal.
It's also worth noting that the pellets are polymers and while there may be no contaminants,per se; the polymers(carbohydrates) will go to monomers( sugars) via anaerobic digestion and monomers of themselves may be harmful to some corals. .

I think both the competition angle and the localized PO4 use angle are plausible as possible causes for nuisance algae of varying species when there nutrients in the water column are lo.

As for PO4 from the rock it can advantage the algae in at least a few of forms that I can think of:
If the rock has loosely bound(not buried in a calcium carbonate crystal) PO4 on the surface the algae may absorb it;

or, the PO4 may equilibrate into the water column if the surrounding water is lower in PO4 than the rock surface and algae may absorb it in another location .

If the rock can be isolated in 0 to near zero PO4 water and no PO4 shows up in the water after a few days ,I see no reason to think it will leach in our tank later on unless localized ph shifts occur as may be induced by bacterial activity.

Also ,detritus on the rock may release inorganic phosphate as it breaks down.
 
what is everyones position on refugiums with the pellets?

i just started up my new system and trying to decide if i setup a refugium or skip it on this setup???

thoughts?
 
Thanks for the post it makes some good points. I would also add granulated activated carbon to the skimmer recommendation for organic removal.
It's also worth noting that the pellets are polymers and while there may be no contaminants,per se; the polymers(carbohydrates) will go to monomers( sugars) via anaerobic digestion and monomers of themselves may be harmful to some corals. .

I think both the competition angle and the localized PO4 use angle are plausible as possible causes for nuisance algae of varying species when there nutrients in the water column are lo.

As for PO4 from the rock it can advantage the algae in at least a few of forms that I can think of:
If the rock has loosely bound(not buried in a calcium carbonate crystal) PO4 on the surface the algae may absorb it;

or, the PO4 may equilibrate into the water column if the surrounding water is lower in PO4 than the rock surface and algae may absorb it in another location .

If the rock can be isolated in 0 to near zero PO4 water and no PO4 shows up in the water after a few days ,I see no reason to think it will leach in our tank later on unless localized ph shifts occur as may be induced by bacterial activity.

Also ,detritus on the rock may release inorganic phosphate as it breaks down.

tom, I am directing this to you as you have a superb background in bacteria

The main aim is to 'remove' as much bacterial mulm as possible, leaving only traces to make it through to the system as coral food (a poor one at that compared to real zoo-plankton it must be said)..."

In my particular system I added the np pellets to increase bacteria for the corals. The system took care of phosphates and nitrates by the use of two 40gal refugiums and dsb's.
If this is the case I maybe should remove the pellets and return to the phosban reactor although I am enjoying the crystal clear water.:thumbsup:
My tank is totall lps corals and softies also.
 
what is everyones position on refugiums with the pellets?

i just started up my new system and trying to decide if i setup a refugium or skip it on this setup???

thoughts?

I'm doing both. More for bug cultivation and biodiversity than for nutrient export, but I do it for that, too.

DJ
 
I am running a lifereef CA reactor. I know this is not the place for this topic but I was told that your not supposed to place the calcium reactor effluent into the skimmer pump intake because the skimmer takes out calcium when it skims the scum? Is that untrue? I live in a small town, and there are no reefers that I am aware of around here, I'm kinda self taught and the internet is so full of poo its hard to believe anything i read.
I do run the effluent into a cup with an air stone, but have always felt that running the effluent into the skimmer was a great idea to get rid of excess CO2. I just have never tested the theory, and actually it was something I was going to try tonite.

I'm no scientist but as far as I know I don't think protein skimmers can extract Ca ions any more than they can they can extract NO3/PO4... I don't think any of the above is hydrophilic or hydrophobic enough - this is why we need bacteria to assimilate the latter two so that a skimmer's foam can in fact grab hold of them.

In one particular aquarium that I'm rehabilitating at the moment I raised the Calcium level by way of Kent Liquid calcium up to about 460, and to my surprise after a couple of weeks without testing, I found that my calcium had gone too high... up to 540ppm. I promptly shut down my CaCO3 reactor (well at least the CO2 supply; although the system was still online otherwise); and of course discontinued my liquid calcium dosing. It's been about a month now with pretty good skimming and the Ca still has not come down much... so I'm left waiting for my coralline to get a good foothold, and my LPS to contribute to using up the rest. So based on this experience alone it would appear as though the skimmer is not making a dent on the Ca concentration - at least not one significant enough to cause you any concern with your situation.

Regards,

SJ
 
A friend and colleague passed this post along me. It adds some more perspective to some of the issues of using the pellets


"Just thought id dive on here folks and offer a mix of observations based on research with both medias.

This information is derIved from various sources ive worked with over some time now, some of whom are more than qualified in my opinion to offer reasoning behind the points raised.

Issues commonly encountered:

Excessive clouding of the aquarium and associated risks....(oxygen depletion causing stress in fish, Ph suppression, and bacterial overload of the corals mucus coating)

It appears in some cases that clouding can occur due to bacterial blooms within the main display which are caused by two common factors.

1. An excessive amount of media used initially in the presence of very high free nutrient levels commonly appears to trigger a bacterial bloom on the media that exceeds the skimmers capacity for removal. The excess then ends up being shunted through to the main display where it can (at high levels) use up excessive amounts of oxygen leading to stress in fish, with subsequent drops in Ph..

2. Excessive levels of water-born bacteria can (as well as acting as a food source) also adversely affect some corals that lack the ability to shed this buildup from their surfaces via the mucus coating. Sps corals are very well adapted to such conditions having a higher degree of mucus secreting ability comared to many soft corals. Under high light intensity it may well be the case that some soft corals become so heavily laden with this constant bombardment of bacteria sticking to their surfaces under cloudy conditions that it affects the corals ability to balance out gases produced during photosynthesis leading to bleaching.

Recommendation: The start up dose should be pulled back if you notice excessive clouding at any stage, by removing the media, retaining a smaller amount, and washing and rubbing the remainder under RO to shed and kill off any bacteria before storing it for use later. The higher the initial free nutrient load, the lower the startup dose should be, with approximately 1/2 the recommended minimum dose used in systems with No3 levels between 1-5ppm, and 1/4 of the minimum dose used in systems with No3 above that level. Technically, there is no 'minimum' start up dose beyond that needed to start a slow downward trend in free nutrient levels (if you want to start with 100ml/100gallons, so be it if your sitting at 50ppm N03). As those levels start to fall nearer to the baseline, the dosage can be increased bit by bit to spread the now limited bacterial populations ( nutrient limited) across the larger more affective surface area afforded by the increase in media. (why increase the dose as the levels rise?....well, ill get to that in a minute)

Equally the skimmer must come under the spotlight. The fundamentals of this system rest squarely on the shoulders of the skimmers capacity to remove the bacteria presented to it. If the skimmer is not up to the job (poor quality, poorly designed or simply poorly adjusted) it will have a knock on effect in terms of the ratio of bacteria removed compared to that allowed to pass through to the main system...The main aim is to 'remove' as much bacterial mulm as possible, leaving only traces to make it through to the system as coral food (a poor one at that compared to real zoo-plankton it must be said)...remember it is after all an 'assimilation and export' method not not a conversion method as in nitrification or de-nitrification (although some does occure)....If you are not convinced your skimmer is up to the task, consider an upgrade or place a filter sock on the outlet of the skimmer to catch surplus bacterial mulm. This must however be cleaned once every 7 days without fail to remove these bacteria which will die off after approximately 8 days after exiting the reactor and being deprived of the media as a food source. Once the bacteria die, they release what was previously bound back into solution and the whole process just goes round in a big circle with little if any effect on the free nutrient pool.

The recommended end dose:

As the nutrient pool starts to fall and get nearer natural levels (im not using the words ULNS here ) We are NOT trying to create a nutrient poor desert to the degree that zooxanthallae populations start to die back excessively leading to excessive paling in the corals...what we ARE trying to do, is make way for more food addition in an effort to get closer to the natural environment, where corals and fish can have a much higher degree of daily food availability via the natural pathways of prey capture without building up a surplus nutrient pool.

Corals are supremely adaptable animals because they have the ability to derive nutrients from differing sources and to differing degrees depending on the environment. In nearly all cases we effectively starve our corals in one primary area (that being prey capture) forcing the coral to take advantage of dissolved nutrients and light energy to make up for the deficit. If you take away or lower the background levels of dissolved nutrients to more natural levels you have to make up that deficit in the way of real food for the corals to capture and consume without which the coral lacks the energy and nutrients required to produce protective pigments, mucus coatings, and to fuel further growth. so the aim is to gradually increase feeding as the nutrient levels fall. The recommended surplus volume of media above that required to instigate the initial fall in levels is based on the volume required to offer suitable surface area for future populations that have to keep up with the increased food input and subsequent nutrient input after nitrification and to a degree new higher levels of Po4 input. This is where some medias are deffinately better than others....you cant beat surface area at the end of the day when it comes to a bacterial growth platform...the smaller the media, the more surface area available per liter of media used...

In short....as your free No3/Po4 levels start to fall, gradually increase your feeding so the corals are able to adapt to the shift in nutrient pathways...If you don't, your corals will suffer.....And don't be surprised at how much food you can end up putting in once the system has stabilised and your at your maximum dosage for the system volume. from personal experience the amount can far exceed other methods without the drawbacks of nutrient buildup, but you have to take your time and let the system adjust.

NB: In new systems or those that are already at natural trace levels of No3/Po4 there is no reason why you cant start with a higher or full dose, becouse any bacteria present will already be nutrient limited, so blooms are far less likely.

Time as an indicator of success:

Basically, if your seeing a fall from 50ppm No3 in just a couple of weeks to 5ppm or less its NOT a good thing in reality because your corals wont have time to adapt to the shift in nutrient pathways. What you really want to be looking at is a fall over several months to give both your corals 'and you' a Chance to shift the pathways over. you cannot hope to get a handle on how much to increase feeding by if your levels are falling like a stone because by the time they hit natural levels (sub 0.1ppm NO3 and sub 0.008ppm Po4) which is the point the bacterial populations will become nutrient limited to the degree full deprivation becomes virtually negligible. you wont have had time to gauge if your corals are getting enough food or if they are still falling into energy deprivation. So the main aim is to keep the process as a slow adjustment for both you and your corals.

Bleaching in soft corals and some LPS may also be linked to another factor:

Its been reported on many occasions that an increase in water clarity is encountered as the bacterial mulm acts as a flocculant, binding other material in the process and clayfying the water (not to be confused with carbon). This increase in clarity can cause stress in some soft corals which lack the ability that many SPS have to rapidly produce protective pigments in an effort to combat changes in photo saturation. It may well be the case that increased clarity has simply led to these corals becoming stressed via over saturation or increased UV penetration.

As for claims regarding possible contaminants I can verify that 'NONE' of the bio media brands on the market in the UK at present contain anything that can be of harm to livestock, be that SPS/LPS/or otherwise. There does however seem to be some situations where certain corals have reacted adversely, but there certainly isn't any 'trend' beyond those attributable to the fact that some corals in some situations may suffer stress if the tank conditions are altered drastically within too shorter time frame or adequate measures are not taken on the part of the keeper to make up for the shift in nutrient pathways leaving the coral weak and susceptible to infection or other factors as previously mentioned such as bacterial fouling. Some corals simply dont like being subjected to change which is a game we all play.

Po4 uptake the truth:

For the process to work effectively you need both nitrate and phosphate availability. If one or the other reaches natural levels, it then becomes the limiting factor for the 'whole' process. So its not surprising that some report Po4 or No3 sitting stubbornly in the absence of the other, in which case secondary measures are required, IE water changes in the case of an No3 pool, or Po4 removers in the case of a Po4 pool. In reality, Po4 addition/generation is far higher than NO3 generation in closed systems due to food input, so it will inevitably lead to an imbalance of availability, with No3 usually being the limiting factor, and a surplus Po4 pool to be taken care of. In essence don't remove your Po4 reactors, because it will still be required to take up that surplus input beyond that being assimilated with the available No3 pool...what this process will do is make your Po4 remover last allot longer though. (as the blurb says 'reduces' Po4 and No3')...nobody ever said it does it in perfect balance.


Hopefully this will answer a few questions, but if i can be of any further help then please feel free to ask and i'll offer what input i can when i have time.
__________________

Simon Garratt. o.c.r.d"

:thumbsup::thumbsup: Very informative post - I don't think it has been stressed enough that this should be a gradual process. I started off expecting immediate results based on my initial readings, but as DJ provided some perspective; it really depends on from what levels you are starting from. If it weren't for a spontaneous test of a relatively miniscule sample water, I would have still been under the impression that the system was not working for me - at least in my current configuration. Low and behold not only was it working... but it was working at a preferrable rate of nutrient decrease!!!:thumbsup: Very good confirmation these recent posts are...[says Yoda]

SJ
 
I'm no scientist but as far as I know I don't think protein skimmers can extract Ca ions any more than they can they can extract NO3/PO4... I don't think any of the above is hydrophilic or hydrophobic enough - this is why we need bacteria to assimilate the latter two so that a skimmer's foam can in fact grab hold of them.

In one particular aquarium that I'm rehabilitating at the moment I raised the Calcium level by way of Kent Liquid calcium up to about 460, and to my surprise after a couple of weeks without testing, I found that my calcium had gone too high... up to 540ppm. I promptly shut down my CaCO3 reactor (well at least the CO2 supply; although the system was still online otherwise); and of course discontinued my liquid calcium dosing. It's been about a month now with pretty good skimming and the Ca still has not come down much... so I'm left waiting for my coralline to get a good foothold, and my LPS to contribute to using up the rest. So based on this experience alone it would appear as though the skimmer is not making a dent on the Ca concentration - at least not one significant enough to cause you any concern with your situation.

Regards,

SJ

Actually, all you need to do is look at what's in the cup and smell the NO3 and PO4 that it has removed.

DJ
 
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