N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)
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daveonbass
New member
I thought about feeding more as well...maybe try and get the N and P levels more balanced...
I'm also thinking of doing a massive 80% to 90% water change...and see if the trates come right back.
I'm also thinking of doing a massive 80% to 90% water change...and see if the trates come right back.
PowermanKW
New member
I really want to know the answer to the need for lowered Alk while using pellets like for carbon dosing. (liquid)
Nobody has ever really explained the mechanism behind burnt tips with high alk and carbon dosing.
So I want to know if there is any danger of the same thing with using pellets. I lowered my Alk to a more reasonable level but not because of the pellets. I am at 9.0 right now, but that is still at the upper limit of carbon dosing.
Nobody has ever really explained the mechanism behind burnt tips with high alk and carbon dosing.
So I want to know if there is any danger of the same thing with using pellets. I lowered my Alk to a more reasonable level but not because of the pellets. I am at 9.0 right now, but that is still at the upper limit of carbon dosing.
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Unfortunately I don't think there is any good literature to explain the correlation to burnt tips and tissue recession when high alk levels are maintained in conjunction with carbon source dosing. It is, however, a very commonly documented occurrence. One "THEORY" is that the liquid carbon sources that we dose to the entire tank is altering the metabolic function in symbiotic bacteria and upsetting the delicate balance between the corals and the symbiotic bacteria on and in the corals tissue. If these pellets don't allow the carbon source to leach into the tank and alter the symbiotic relationship between the corals and the bacteria then we may well be able to elevate alk levels at a low nutrient environment. That is only a theory though and the carbon dosing may be doing something completely undocumented or undiscovered we may likely create the same reaction when we use the pellets as a carbon source. That's why I was so curious to hear what people were maintaining their alk levels at when using these pellets.
If a person could use these pellets to get to a very low nutrient level and still maintain a high alk that would be the cats meow!!!
Jeremy
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daveonbass
New member
here's a video of the tank...look it over and tell me what I can improve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLXtPddHa8&feature=youtube_gdata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLXtPddHa8&feature=youtube_gdata
rutz81
New member
How long have you been running them?
OK Dave,
2 things - maybe fill the TLF reactor up 1/2 way with pellets. I'm not sure u have enough to do the job.
It doesn't look like 3" of sand in the DT, more like 2", and even 1" in spots. If you're not going to go 4+" in the DT then move all that sand down to the refugium and go BB, or close to it. You'll get 4"+ down here no problem with the sand that you have in the display. I bet if you stuck a gravel vacuum in your DT when you did your next water change, you'd find the source of your nitrates. I'm not recommending this mind you, just making a supposition. I like how the TLF feeds your skimmer. How's that working? Is the skimmer really cranking it out?
Conures?
DJ
2 things - maybe fill the TLF reactor up 1/2 way with pellets. I'm not sure u have enough to do the job.
It doesn't look like 3" of sand in the DT, more like 2", and even 1" in spots. If you're not going to go 4+" in the DT then move all that sand down to the refugium and go BB, or close to it. You'll get 4"+ down here no problem with the sand that you have in the display. I bet if you stuck a gravel vacuum in your DT when you did your next water change, you'd find the source of your nitrates. I'm not recommending this mind you, just making a supposition. I like how the TLF feeds your skimmer. How's that working? Is the skimmer really cranking it out?
Conures?
DJ
How old is the sand? Is it reef sand or something else?
daveonbass
New member
Running the NP pellets...?
I've had them since mid april...so 6+ weeks or so. I know some have seen good results before that much time, some have taken longer.
daveonbass
New member
YES! conures....SCREEEAAAACH!
that's all they do...haha
as for the tank. I double checked it and you are right...at the highest point it was only 2.5 inches. I added more sand tonight...and the "front" is now at about 3-3.5". But that level will change as I even it all out and then the vortech will blow some around. I may end up adding another 2.5 gallon tank to the sump and filling it with sand and plumbing it back to the sump. And by the way my sump area has no LIGHT, that's why i have to use a flashlight to show everything. I have tried to syphon my sand in the past and all that happend was I got a bucket of sand...I guess it's not heavy enough to not get sucked right up. The sand level has me stumpped though, cause my last tank had just as little sand and I had 0 NO3 all the time. (well I did have a little HOB fuge too...nevermind then)
As far as the skimmer...that's my most disappointing thing. I wish I was pulling out a ton of skimmate/bacteria all the time, but it's a slow fill that I usually empty out one a week. and it's rearely ever more than half full. It's a DAS EX1 (I think, it's DAS and then 1) and it's a great skimmer but with the effluent comming strait from the TLF/NP pellets, it gets very little skimmate. I'm ALMOST wondering if I would be better off doing a T-fitting mod and maybe letting some of the bacteria flow more up to my main DT. Just for grins I'm going to test the water leaving the skimmer for NO3 and see if it's any different. I DO find it easier to maintain the sump with just one pump running the pellets and the skimmer, but it may not be the best idea.
Also you mentioned that it didn't look like enough pellets...but to remind everyone...it's a 58g tank...and maybe less than 10 more gallons in the sump...so it's under 100g. And the product listed that you should start with 500ml per 100 gallons. So I have 500ml in say 60-65g. I would think that was enough. But I DID get the BIGGER of the reactors by TLF. So that's why it loks like a small amount of pellets. But it IS 500ml. just to clear that up. But I have been thinking of adding more...jsut to see if that made a difference...and I wuld then assume (if it did) that my trates were so high that I DID need more than 500ml in the first place, and that the manufacturer is kind of just averaging out how much N and P there are per the average, say, 100g tank.
I'll try to post later about anything that happens now that I've made a new change...haha.
And to answer the last question...it's Aquarium grade sand...DRY SAND, but no it's not from a hardware store...It's CaribSea Aragonite, sugar-sized oolite. I've never had a problem with it before...
daveonbass
New member
oh and "by the Dubb" I have moved out the 2 clowns and two bangaii's till this all gets fixed...so that's a little less waste.
tntneon
SPSahollic
Hi PowerKW
,I to don't know the mechamism behind the burn tips withy carbon dosing ,
but i do know that my tank has an alkinity of 9.3 to 9.6 (sometimes lower 8.5 to 8.9) and in both cases i don't see anything bad happening to my corals.
As to growth rates they are good to very good in both cases of alkinity.
Does anyones have link or picture of burnt tips ?
greetingzz tntneon
tntneon
SPSahollic
Hi Oldude
,-I saw them decline over the first 4 months or so to the point the chaeto became very brittle and light green ; like you said.
Then i pulled all the bad and brittle chaeto out and replaced my old 9 w buld with an 26 w grow bulb with reflector .
the last 3 months the chaeto grows back like crazy with the pellets still in service and nitrates steady at 0.1 ppm and po4 at zero (salifert) .
I already replaced half my pellets with new ones 2 months ago.
-It seems like in order to survive the lower nutrient system the macro's need more light to uptake the last traces of n/p .
greetingzz tntneon
tntneon
SPSahollic
Hi daveonbass
,can you dial your skimmer to wet skimming ?
How much skimmate do you have in a week ?
I don't think that the sand bed will be the issue , it's looking so clean that i don't expect that's the problem.
greetingzz tntneon
daveonbass
New member
I can wet skim, but I usually end up just getting saltwater, and not much skimmate. But it was wet skimming better when I had the maxjet 1200. It harder to do now being run off the quietone 3000.
tntneon
SPSahollic
hi reefers ,
Here's an update of my little tank using the BP's ,
at last some decend pics due to the new camera i have :celeb1: canon 550D
I'm still learning with this camera , try to shoot some pics tonight of PE when i have less reflections in the glass.
greetingzz tntneon
,Here's an update of my little tank using the BP's ,
at last some decend pics due to the new camera i have :celeb1: canon 550D
I'm still learning with this camera , try to shoot some pics tonight of PE when i have less reflections in the glass.
greetingzz tntneon
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jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Hi PowerKW
I to don't know the mechamism behind the burn tips withy carbon dosing ,
but i do know that my tank has an alkinity of 9.3 to 9.6 (sometimes lower 8.5 to 8.9) and in both cases i don't see anything bad happening to my corals.
As to growth rates they are good to very good in both cases of alkinity.
Does anyones have link or picture of burnt tips ?
greetingzz tntneon
this article has pictures of burnt tips.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php
Jeremy
This actually makes perfect sense. dKH is a measure of carbonate hardness. We're dosing carbon in a liquid form. In normal situations if dKH rises above 12, we normally see tissue recession esp from Porites, and Montiporids. Obviously, this is a carbon overdose issue.
DJ
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
I'm not following you. Dosing a carbon source dosing is not related to carbonate hardness except for the fact that high alk levels will cause burnt tips and tissue recession. With the burnt tip phenomenon, the amount of the carbon source being dosed to get to a low nutrient level doesn't matter, the alk level is the value of concern. Your comment seems to indicate that dosing a carbon source will increase carbonate levels - not true at all. A carbon source (vodka, vinegar, sugar, vit c, etc...) is not in any way the same as carbonate which is used for building skeletal structure. Coral health and increased growth can easily be maintained at and above 12dkh (when carbon source dosing isn't being implemented). In fact, quite a while back Tatu had sent me an article that showed SPS growth rates continued to increase as alk levels were increased all the way up to 24 and 25 dkh. When dosing a carbon source to bring nutrients to a low level it's often observed that many SPS will exhibit burnt tips (tissue recession and browning of the tips) as well as tissue recession in other areas if the alk level is above 8 dkh. When the alk level is maintained between 7-8 dkh these negative reactions don't occur. It has absolutely nothing to do with a carbon source overdose. Here is a quote from the article I posted:
My question is have the corals exhibited the same reaction of burnt tips with alk levels above 8dkh when the carbon source is the biopellets. Again, that's why I'm asking those whom are using the biopellets what their alk levels are maintained at.
Jeremy
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