tntneon
SPSahollic
probably , but you have to be sure that the top pads are removed , else they will get clogged very fast and reducing the flow rapidly and creating low oxginen area's who are bad with this system .
greetingzz tntneon
N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)
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greetingzz tntneon
daveonbass
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I'm in similar shape. I've used they for almost 2 months I guess...and nothing. I'm starting to think my PE is just my imagination. BUT...I'm not giving up just yet.
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Comparing an organic carbon source and an element like caco3 is like comparing apples to oranges. In a reef tank a carbonate molecule does not break down to have an end result of organic carbon that will fuel bacterial growth.
caco3 doesn't break down in a reef system to create a free organic carbon molecule to fuel bacterial growth. Adding an organic carbon source is completely different than adding carbonate or bicarbonate to increase alkalinity. Adding an organic carbon source DOES NOT increase alkalinity and adding carbonate or bicarbonate DOES NOT increase organic carbon levels to fuel backterial growth.
Again, it's quite easy to maintain alk levels above 12 dkh WITHOUT burnt tips. In fact, (I'll repeat again) there have been studies to show that in tanks whom aren't dosed with a liquid carbon source it's possible to raise alk levels all the way up to 23-24 dkh and the reaction is actually postitive with increased growth of SPS AND NO BURNT TIPS. Your implying that corals will get burnt tips from an alk of 12 dkh in the same manner and biological reaction that they will when we dose a liquid carbon source and have alk levels above 8 dkh. These are two completely different situations and increased carbonate does not equate to increased organic carbon.
This is a very separate situation but the results are not the same.
Hopefully Randy will comment to clarify further.
Jeremy
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Do you have the pellet reactor effluent directed at your skimmer to remove the majority of the bacterioplankton??
Jeremy
The key difference between carbonate and organic carbon is fairly straightforward in this case. Carbonate is in an oxidized state, like carbon dioxide, and organisms require energy input to break the bonds to the oxygen molecules and make the carbon useful. Plants and other photosynthetic organisms break this type of bond by harnessing energy from sunlight. They can convert this carbon to sugar, for example, which is a high-energy food usable by animals.
Animals don't use sunlight or any other type of energy to do this type of conversion, and must take up carbon in other forms to be able to use it.
Of course, we don't know what drives tip browning in corals, and there might be multiple different types of browning happening, but carbonate and organic carbon would be very unlikely to drive the same process.
Animals don't use sunlight or any other type of energy to do this type of conversion, and must take up carbon in other forms to be able to use it.
Of course, we don't know what drives tip browning in corals, and there might be multiple different types of browning happening, but carbonate and organic carbon would be very unlikely to drive the same process.
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I really want to know the answer to the need for lowered Alk while using pellets like for carbon dosing. (liquid)
Nobody has ever really explained the mechanism behind burnt tips with high alk and carbon dosing.
I've never heard any convincing (or even remotely plausible) discussion of why systems like zeovit seem to have more problems with "burnt tips" at higher alkalinity than do other systems.
I'm not sure it has anything to do with carbon dosing per se. I've always thought it had more to do with lower nutrients that accompany such systems, rather than the organic carbon, but I really have no idea what causes it.
One way to answer this is to see whether folks initiating such systems see burnt tips before nutrients get low. But I've not seen any such data.
Nobody has ever really explained the mechanism behind burnt tips with high alk and carbon dosing.
I've never heard any convincing (or even remotely plausible) discussion of why systems like zeovit seem to have more problems with "burnt tips" at higher alkalinity than do other systems.
I'm not sure it has anything to do with carbon dosing per se. I've always thought it had more to do with lower nutrients that accompany such systems, rather than the organic carbon, but I really have no idea what causes it.
One way to answer this is to see whether folks initiating such systems see burnt tips before nutrients get low. But I've not seen any such data.
PowermanKW
New member
So it's not just me, no real reason so far. I thought I had alk burn on a acro, but not too sure. Decided to lower my levels to be more conservative. So at 9.0 I don't see a reason to worry.
euromomtx
New member
I've had the hardest time getting the flow just right even with my plastic canvas mods (see a few dozen pages back.lol)
I got the new Nextreef modifications now with the different disks and slightly bigger fittings and - wow -finally it's perfect. Gentle tumbling at last.
I got the new Nextreef modifications now with the different disks and slightly bigger fittings and - wow -finally it's perfect. Gentle tumbling at last.
UM, OK. I don't think I implied that they were the same. I certainly didn't say that they were. I certainly didn't say CaCO3 could grow bacteria, though I'm confident that there is some cryptic species somewhere who uses calcium carbonate as a metabolic source. I've seen way too many crazy things to rule out the possibility.
OK, once again I don't think I implied anything to that effect. In fact I didn't say anything about that at all.
23-24dKH? Sorry, I gotta call shenanigans on this. You're gonna have to back that up with something more than hearsay, or some quack article. I need verified reputable, proof that has been tested, and re-tested long term. In my experience when CO3 crosses over 14 dKH things go south. Echinoderms disolve, SPS lose tissue, molluscs fall off the glass, and shrivel up in their shells, and systems start a disorderly demise.
Once again, I made no reference otherwise.
Well, I'm glad we can agree on something.
Look, my point in making this assertion was that somehow C, as an element may become toxic at increased levels, much in the way other elements become toxic at superphysiological levels. I'm simply looking at the total system levels of C and making a deduction based on reasoning. None of this is confirmed science, only loose theory that, of course, would bear further study if someone were so inclined.
DJ
Hi,
I have no clear idea or convincing explaination but I will share an observation.
With PO4 over 0.1 and nitrates in the 20ppm range , I ran 13 dkh routinely with no issues.
After carbon dosing for months these nutrients settled at
O4,.05ppm and nitrate at <0.5ppm; not super low but lower than before. At these levels which were gradually achieved over a period of months burnt tips occurred in several specimens with alk over 11 dkh. Most have since healed at lower alk,9.5. I don't think the corals are starving since the system receives a good deal of food and houses many fish and nitrate is present.
Perhaps the reduction in PO4 triggers more biotic precipitation and imbalances the process somehow . Or maybe the extra organic carbon imbalances the coral's bacteria in some way making it more difficult for the coral to keep up with higher precipitation rates. Or something else entirely ?
FWIW It has all worked great( healthy sps, good growth and a variety of other corals) at 9.5 dkh and the noted PO4 and NO3 levels for the last year.
daveonbass
New member
I believe that the people who created it have had success in all type of marine tanks, including LPS/softy tanks.
jlinzmaier
Premium Member
Read this thread.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860322
Cliff does a great job at putting it all out there black and white in his post. In this next link Tatu reiterates virtually the same thing.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1736153
This article abstract indicates increasing growth rates with aragonite saturation levels increased by 585%.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VF0-3VNHCNG-3&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1362326937&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=966ad39c609464afdbeeac9c271be949
I found that with just with a quick google scholar search. I don't have the links that Tatu sent me a while back with more studies on alk levels at and above 25 dkh but it you'd like to read them please PM me and I'll get in touch with Cliff or Tatu (I'm sure they can find them quicker than I can).
I won't pick your posts apart and again show you how you seemed to be implying that the "carbon" from a buffer (which is carbonate/bicarbonate) and that the organic carbon from liquid carbon dosing is the same and can function the same. Maybe it's just how I'm reading your posts but it seemed quite clear that that is what you were implying. I won't debate this subject any longer on this thread. DJ if you want to discuss further please PM me. This is a great thread and I don't want to derail.
My goal with incoorporating the correlation of alk levels, burnt tip scenario, and carbon dosing was merely to find out if burnt tips were still occuring when bacterial proliferation was induced through these pellets which is critically different from normal carbon dosing as the manufacturer seems to indicate there is absolutely no leaching of carbon into the water column. If there are no burnt tips with elevated alk levels when inducing significant bacterial proliferation with these pellets then that evidence could provide more support to a common theory that liquid carbon source dosing can cause abnormal overgrowth of a corals symbiotic bacteria which creatss the reaction of the burnt tips and tissue recession. It could also support the theory that we could significantly increase growth rates of SPS corals by providing a very low nutrient environment through bacterial proliferation and elevated levels of calcium and carbonate (above commonly accepted levels) to increase skelatogenesis.
Jeremy
tntneon
SPSahollic
Thx dejavu
,Never thought that i , with my kindergarden englisch
could start a thread that would be voted to thread to the month.It is due to the many opions and sugestions that this thread has become informatif , thanks to all you guys and girls .....
thx Yogre
+1 , thx to all beying involved and pro active given there opions and experiences...
greetingzz tntneon
I too believe that it should have something to do with the low nutrients and not the carbon dosing. My theory is that since phosphates is inhibiting calcification corals can tolerate (or even prefer) higher levels of carbonates/bicarbonates if phosphate is elevated. If carbonates/bicarbonates is high without the calcification inhibition from an elevated phosphate level the corals might have problems controlling the calcification process, causing the burnt tips.
Please notice that this is just my theory which is probably based on oversimplifications and/or flaws and misconceptions.
tntneon
SPSahollic
Hi,
I have no clear idea or convincing explaination but I will share an observation.
With PO4 over 0.1 and nitrates in the 20ppm range , I ran 13 dkh routinely with no issues.
After carbon dosing for months these nutrients settled at
I don't think the corals are starving since the system receives a good deal of food and houses many fish and nitrate is present.
Perhaps the reduction in PO4 triggers more biotic precipitation and imbalances the process somehow . Or maybe the extra organic carbon imbalances the coral's bacteria in some way making it more difficult for the coral to keep up with higher precipitation rates. Or something else entirely ?
FWIW It has all worked great( healthy sps, good growth and a variety of other corals) at 9.5 dkh and the noted PO4 and NO3 levels for the last year.
-Hi Tmz
,-Did you withnessed less or more growth rate when having does burnt tips ?
It seems that my acro is too showing signs of burnt tips ( see attachment), although i always had that white tips.
It always growed the same steady rate (not very high growth rate though) ,
other stony's seem to grow faster (monti , poccilopora)
greetingzz tntneon
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