N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[syedjilani]

Subscribed....

 

[DarkXerox]

I'll hypothesize that there is an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source. The difference being that films on teeth are swept away more by our tounges, saliva, and brushing. Whereas in calcium reactors there is low flow and no film removal.

But where my idea is weak is why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

 

[Safedad]

Bacteria supply

Bacteria supply

How often do I need to add more Microbacter 7 or Zeovit since I have started using NP Biopellets?

 

[tntneon]

...an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source.....
....why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it...

-That is a great analogy , don't know if it's the same mechanism though ,but it makes sense to me.

-There must be others doing carbon dosing and having downstream Ca-reactors having that issue ??

greetingzz tntneon

 

[Scej12]

Seems you could also use the by products of bacterial respiration and waste, eg fermentation(Vodka etc) and the other, particularly where O2 is low......acetic acid, which dissolved the CaCO3 quite well, it'll also lower dKH.

This could be tested also:

Use a small dosing pump to dose acetic acid, say 5% distilled and pH controlled via pH controller.

This could be used in place of CO2 and supply an organic reduced carbon source as well.

Cheaper and simpler than CO2 I would think.

Interesting experiment for sure... Would certainly explain the low dKH I'm experiencing but not the low Ca as well? Would be nice to dig a little deeper to see if both behaviours can be explained. I know at least one person who tried to use the effluent of a conventional anoxic denitrator to feed a calcium reactor, however, I think in the end it didn't acheive what he was hoping for... can't recall why, but I think it was because he wasn't able to get a low enough pH perhaps.

hi scej12 ,

-Have you tryed to collect some of the "melt away"-substance , to exame it if it's sandy or not ?


greetingzz tntneon

IIRC, the consistency is one of a very fine pasty/muddy texture; and as you can see is the same colour as the media. I would say that it's broken down past the level of grainy sand... I'd say powder!

I'll hypothesize that there is an analogy between the bacteria living in the Ca reactor media and cavities on teeth. In both situations bacteria are degrading a carbonate based substrate via organic acid secretion fueled by a carbon source. The difference being that films on teeth are swept away more by our tounges, saliva, and brushing. Whereas in calcium reactors there is low flow and no film removal.

But where my idea is weak is why in vodka dosing or sugar dosing tanks, we don't see the melting phenomenon (or do we?). We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

Now that's a great analogy:bounce1:!!! It actually works IMO hand in hand with Tom's suggestion that there could be some sort of heterotrophic activity going on. I happen to be talking to someone who has a micro-bio background and in response to my questioning him on this topic he started suggesting that their could be some types of bacteria that in nature feed on coral/CaCO3 substances, then I showed him your post on my blackberry, and he seemed to agree that something of the like is entirely possible. I would go so far as to suggest that your post certainly closes a few gaps in my understanding of this whole bacteria food-chain issue.

And BTW - your idea is not weak at all since the system for which the query applies is actually a vodka-dosed system and not a BP system. I also previously mentioned that I saw a similar media melt accumulation at the bottom of someone else's dual chamber calc reactor on a system that was employing biopellets. His was an upward flow reactor which is only significant because the media appeard to be clean (no internal reactor downward streaking), even though there was a pile of the same powdery residue at the bottom of his second chamber which served as a pass-thru (not recirculating) chamber.... But once again - I think you made a key analogy here!!

 

[tmz]

We also would have to wonder why live rock in the tank doesn't suffer the same fate, maybe due to coralline algae coating it?

The ph in the water is higher in the tank than in the reactor where low flow and extra cocentrations of CO2 are in play,which is why the argonite media dissolves in the first place. Relatedly sometimes sand clumping occurs in substrate attributable to on/off localized low ph from anaerobic bacterial activity. The coraline would dissolve as readily as the rock at ph much under 7.7.

 

[Scej12]

That Dental Analogy Really Makes CENTS...!!!

That Dental Analogy Really Makes CENTS...!!!

Oh and BTW - the dental reference I understand only because I've had way too many lectures from my dentist stating that "... even though you have apparently perfect teeth (i.e. no cavities) if you don't pick up on your flossing regime you're going to have perfectly healthy teeth falling out of your mouth due to bone loss..." In other words: a good dentist will tell you that flossing helps to remove the tarter/bacteria from below the gum line; If you allow this bacteria to form and grow there, it will gradually erode your jawbone down further and further until you don't have enough bone coverage holding the roots of your teeth in place, and therefore your teeth will eventually pop out!!!

DarkXerox... you just provided one very relate-able example of heterotrophic bacterial activity:hammer:

Bacteria eating away at your calcium-based bones is not too far a stretch from bacteria eating away at CaCO3 Media... Of course as an inventor, I'm thinking how can we make use of this knowledge :smurf::idea:... but am really just happy to understand a little more of what is going on.

SJ

 

[DarkXerox]

Yeah well being the son of a dentist and having a masters in bio makes my brain link things in strange ways haha.

The enamel of teeth is made up of mostly hydroxylapatite which is similar to CaCO3, but has a lot of phosphate present in it and is a little more resistant to dissolution (starts having problems at ~pH 5.5). So it is starting to make sense now that you can have this dramatic effect at "higher" (~7.7) pH levels.

 

[Scej12]

Linking huh:hmm6: You know that in life there are many, many specialties to pursue; but my favourite move [not just in basketball] still remains the cross-over... this is indeed where the best innovations are found:bounce3:

In any event, why do you think the Ca and dKH are not at levels consistent with the apparent dissolution? Could it be assumed that the bacteria is consuming this as well...? Any bio-chem buffs wanting to chime in...:wildone:

 

[Scej12]

How often do I need to add more Microbacter 7 or Zeovit since I have started using NP Biopellets?

I dose ZeoBak a couple times a week per the recommendation on the bottle. I would probably go with the recommended maintenance dosage for any bacteria source I decide to supplement a carbon dosing regime with.

Regards,

Sheldon

 

[Aquarist007]

Tom if you try that, let us know how it works out. My GFO reactor always gets clogged with detritus. I think a mechanical inline pre-filter would be better right?

Two little fishes has come out with a replacement kit for the black foam filters. Its a plastic template that will also fit the larger of the two reactors
Costs a couple of bucks and it works great
Its designed for the pellets but I have been using it with carbon also with no clog ups

 

[Aquarist007]

I dose ZeoBak a couple times a week per the recommendation on the bottle. I would probably go with the recommended maintenance dosage for any bacteria source I decide to supplement a carbon dosing regime with.

Regards,

Sheldon

It has been suggested previously that you not dose other organic sources when using the pellets. You could be faced wi.th a bacterial bloom esp in the beginning,

 

[Scej12]

It has been suggested previously that you not dose other organic sources when using the pellets. You could be faced wi.th a bacterial bloom esp in the beginning,

Though I don't recall the exact suggestion you are referring to; I do know there was a lot of back and forth about the need for any bacterial supplement at all. In the beginning there were those that insisted that if the pellet distributors didn't mention it; then such supplements should not be required to get the system 'ignited'; but others argued that some form of bac supplement would help those who seemed to be stalled (i.e. no apparent drop in N/P).

I think it can work either way, but I've adopted the original, original theory that if you choose a favourable bacterial strain such as those concocted by Zeovit; Brightwell; or Prodibio, then you stand a better chance of avoiding unfavourable strains of organics thriving bacteria such as cyanobacteria... this came from the original vodka dosing course-corrections.

Over the last 6 mos. or so, I've been successfully dosing Zeobak on two different reefs... a 1000g system employing vodka dosing; and a 500g system using biopellets... prior to engaging the zeobak regime, I experienced cyanobacteria in both. The introduction of zeobak was just a part of a multi-pronged corrective strategy which involved raising pH as well... both systems are now cyano-free while I continue to carbon dose.

So for me, I've had success with supplementing a 'favourable' bacterial source; but I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat...:artist:

SJ

 

[Rhodes19]

Over the last 6 mos. or so, I've been successfully dosing Zeobak on two different reefs... a 1000g system employing vodka dosing; and a 500g system using biopellets... prior to engaging the zeobak regime, I experienced cyanobacteria in both. The introduction of zeobak was just a part of a multi-pronged corrective strategy which involved raising pH as well... both systems are now cyano-free while I continue to carbon dose.

So for me, I've had success with supplementing a 'favourable' bacterial source; but I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat...:artist:

SJ

Hi SJ,

Are you dosing with Zeobak just to get the biopellets started or are you using it as a maintanece dose to keep the biopellets working to thier optimal level?

 

[Scej12]

Hi SJ,

Are you dosing with Zeobak just to get the biopellets started or are you using it as a maintanece dose to keep the biopellets working to thier optimal level?

More for maintenance. I think the pellets will work with/without a supplemental bac source; I just use it as an attempt to choose the type of fauna that benefits from my feeding of carbon. It comes from the thinking that many forms of bacteria can and do benefit from carbon dosing (supposedly including cyano). When vodka dosing was new the recommendation came about that we should dose a favourable bacteria source as a measure to out-compete unfavourable strains that could also benefit from feeding/dosing organic carbon. I simply carried the thought over to pellet strategies as well.

 

[BuckeyeTodd]

Looking for some advice. I am not getting the n/p reduction I was looking for. I'm using BRS pellets, up to full quantity recommended, in a Octopus 110 reactor. I have perfect slow tumble. I have an ATB elegance skimmer, with the reactor flowing directly into skimmer. I'm still running gfo and carbon as I am concerned about n/p levels rising without.

I have been running these for three months, and I'm still reading somewere between 25-50 on Salifert nitrate(which is where I started). Po4 has been .06 with gfo(which is where I started). I'm currently feeding on one day pellets twice and the next day pellets and frozen, so I don't think my feeding is excessive. I recently used a bottle of mb7 to try and kick start these pellets, and am still not getting any noticeable skimmer increase.

What is going on, why am I not getting any results? Should I add more pellets?

 

[SwitchedToLinux]

Two little fishes has come out with a replacement kit for the black foam filters. Its a plastic template that will also fit the larger of the two reactors
Costs a couple of bucks and it works great
Its designed for the pellets but I have been using it with carbon also with no clog ups

Were can you buy this at?

 

[reeftivo]

BRS but out of stock.
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/phosban-reactor-npx-screen-for-use-with-bio-pellets.html

 

[Rhodes19]

More for maintenance. I think the pellets will work with/without a supplemental bac source; I just use it as an attempt to choose the type of fauna that benefits from my feeding of carbon. It comes from the thinking that many forms of bacteria can and do benefit from carbon dosing (supposedly including cyano). When vodka dosing was new the recommendation came about that we should dose a favourable bacteria source as a measure to out-compete unfavourable strains that could also benefit from feeding/dosing organic carbon. I simply carried the thought over to pellet strategies as well.

Thanks SJ,

I'll have to look into doing that myself and see if that helps reduce the gha. Makes sense.

 

[CW from the OC]

More for maintenance. I think the pellets will work with/without a supplemental bac source; I just use it as an attempt to choose the type of fauna that benefits from my feeding of carbon. It comes from the thinking that many forms of bacteria can and do benefit from carbon dosing (supposedly including cyano). When vodka dosing was new the recommendation came about that we should dose a favourable bacteria source as a measure to out-compete unfavourable strains that could also benefit from feeding/dosing organic carbon. I simply carried the thought over to pellet strategies as well.

I've thought it was a waste to dose bacteria, but posts like this have me re-thinking my position. It sure seems to make sence to at least try to develop and grow good bacteria rather than cyano.

Optimally the pellet venders would sell bacteria that is grown and optimzed for their specific pellets. Surprised none of them have developed this product yet, given the high pricing for bacteria in general, especially Zeo.