Naming Zoanthids?

[smp]

And tonight when I get home (if I remember to) I'll be taking a snap of some of my zoos and naming them over at Zoaid.com .. just to prove how arbitrary it all is!

And no, in my previous post I wasn't alluding that people who name zoos are driving the price up for personal gain, but that does happen as a side effect.
I got a frag of REALLY REALLY nice green (like flourescent) zoos just yesterday, I don't know what they're called but they were cheaper than another frag the guy was selling that was purple and not as nice. It's weird, to me .. the nicer zoos were cheaper, why???
It's our screwed up perspective on value.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Something I learned in Economics 101 many years ago. Supply & Demand, it will always be there.

Yes, there will always be the newest, the latest and the greatest. There's a new one coming in the next couple of weeks/months. Just wait, you'll hear all about it, LOL.

Maybe I shouldn't say that I am against naming, I just think there are more important zoo related issues that zoo keepers should be just as if not more concerned and preoccupied with. I keep envisioning a reefer somewhere saying, "this is a pic of my "Dynomite Reds" that I use to have. I couldn't keep them alive, but I have pics and a name for them". I just see things differently sometimes, that's all. No harm done.

I think there's a question in the zoo forum now about a name.

You're right Jovreefer, it's easy to describe them with a name. Only if everyone in the country is using Zoaid and using the same names. I've seen so many zoos on Zoaid with different names in different regions of the country. That's all I'm saying. If the Nomenclature was consistant throughout the world, which we know will be impossible, I might think differently. But what do I know, I'm just a reefer, LOL.

Great disscussion though, I'll allow you guys to have the last word here. Thanks again, and it was good to have a healthy discussion and share our opinions like men.

Mooch

PS,

"Also look on the SPS side of things...people pay $100+ for a frag of anything from Tyree when there is identical pieces out there for lots less. Its not just us zoa people who name things "

I agree, but unless I dive to the floor of the deep blue and discover the first one of anything for the first time, I can't place my name on it. I can say that I found them, but I can never say they're "Mucho's Gilligan Island Green Zoanthids", LOL.

Chow

 

[Jovreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6513579#post6513579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF

Great disscussion though, I'll allow you guys to have the last word here. Thanks again, and it was good to have a healthy discussion and share our opinions like men.

And WOMEN!

 

[Jovreefer]

I have to disagree with the "if it has a name its gonna be more expensive" statement. I've not seen many zoa's on zoaID actually sell for more than if they were not named. Except maybe Reds, true blues, & PPE's, I admit...I sell them...and its not a cheap price tag (not nearly the $250 for 2 polyps as seen on ebay but still high) They are higher price because A) they are hard to find & B) they grow slower than a snails pace and I think both command a decent price tag.

I think thats the main concern for people with naming things, they think that because they have a name they are gonna be really expensive. When really....even if the hard to find & slow growing colors were not named, they'd stil have a high price tag. There probably would not be AS many newbies Rushing to get the latest fad coral, so not AS much demand...but I dont think it would really effect the price of the hard to find colors at all.

All just my personal oppinion here

 

[whodah]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6513334#post6513334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smp
If some newb doesn't see his zoa on Zoaid.com then he thinks it's not special.

they should submit it! there's no discrimination on the site other than a clear shot and a unique name! i've had to ask a couple peeps to reshoot because nobody can identify by name or pattern a blurry zoa, heh! and numerous submissions i've sent an email back saying: they kinda look like ______ which are already on this site. do you agree? and if so, i'm uber happy to add your pic to that zoa as it's extremely beneficial to see how they change/morph under lights/tank-parameters. if you disagree, i'll add it as a newly named zoa.

so far - this hasn't failed and i've gone both ways based on their reply. the only error (that i know of) is possibly the keddsredds in which i'm getting in contact w/ the picture submitters to iron it out.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6513364#post6513364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smp
And tonight when I get home (if I remember to) I'll be taking a snap of some of my zoos and naming them over at Zoaid.com .. just to prove how arbitrary it all is!

are gorilla nipples not proof enough? i hope your intentions are not to belittle the site...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6513579#post6513579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
Maybe I shouldn't say that I am against naming, I just think there are more important zoo related issues that zoo keepers should be just as if not more concerned and preoccupied with.

that i 100% agree with!

and wanted to mention that i'm hoping ZoaID will offer a lot more to this end in the future! although a small start, i think the predator/imitator gallery portion of ZoaID is a small example of this.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6513579#post6513579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MUCHO REEF
Great discussion though, I'll allow you guys to have the last word here. Thanks again, and it was good to have a healthy discussion and share our opinions like men.

please reply if you have more to say! i too think this is a very healthy discussion!

on a related note: i'm personally ALWAYS open to more ideas on the topic! the idea mentioned above about coming up w/ a universal naming system i thought was awesome! i put ideas into place all the time that i don't think are good nor agree with - but keep an open mind as to their benefit and/or what the public wants vs. what i want myself. i've asked a few people for help and a some have helped, some politely declined - which is totally fine! but i'm always open to new ideas and implementations of those ideas.

as always, i'd also like to say that i'm not trying to defend the entity ZoaID.com (even as webmaster). just defending naming zoas which of course is intimately intertwined w/ ZoaID.com - hence me pointing out the distinction. by no means am i a zoanthid expert, heck, i'm a n00b. just a guy who knows how to program

 

[smp]

Since when was making a web site "programming"?



I like the name "gorilla's nipples".
Thing is, if those ever appeared in an LFS here in Toronto, Canada .. they wouldn't call them that.
I'm on board with the consistency sentiment expressed by Mucho is basically what I'm saying.

 

[whodah]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6515060#post6515060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smp
Since when was making a web site "programming"?

oh no you didn't, OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

ha ha! fair enough!

 

[CoralNutz]

I don't want to get really into the discussion as I can see good points on both sides. So just two comments from me.

1. IMO, not EVERY zoa/paly needs to, or should be named. I cannot beleive how many threads lately with titles like this, "Do these have a name" Seems like every other thread lately and lots of them seem to be just common zoas that IMO, don't really warrant a name. I realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and am not trying to imply that anyones zoas are better than anyone elses, but do brown zoas with tan mouths and a little green on them really need a name? :lol:

2. There should be way more consistency with the naming. IMO, there are lots of doubles that are the same thing under different lighting. There are some that are completely different species of corals listed as the same name. I think all zoas submited should include a picture with tank lighting and a picture with camera flash so you can get a truer representation of what colors truly are. 20K and actinics mixed with digital photography can be very decieving. Maybe you need to come up with some high council of zoanthid naming elders or something. :lol:

 

[smp]

Maybe you need to come up with some high council of zoanthid naming elders or something. :lol:

DIBS!
I got my first frags like six whole weeks ago! I'm SO IN ON THIS!!!

 

[surfnvb7]

wow, so many great points here....

i'm kinda torn b/w both sides though.

1- its fun to name zoas, name them whatever you like blah blah blah.

2- i'm sorry if this offends anyone, but seriously.......some people are either so blind, or so ignorant when trying to match colors of certain polyps so they can name their zoas. alot of this misconception can be from computer monitors and digital cameras that don't represent the true colors our eyes perceive.

3- although, here is my BIGGEST gripe. alot of people are trying to pass off similar looking zoas as named that don't look like anything like what the real ones were named after. (whether this is intentional or unintentional...its a big problem).

most notably, we have seen it on some interenet stores, and people selling them in the selling forum.

my biggest issue, is some certain LFS who are trying to name them, then UP the cost of them big time b/c they think they have something "rare" that came off of one of their supplier shipments that looks "similar" to what X-employee saw on this forum where people were saying this polyp is worth Y-amount of dollars. In some cases, the zoas they named and were trying to sell didn't look anything like what the named zoa polyp looked like on zoaid or in this forum.

4- I have seen different LFS sells zoas differenty. luckily, my local store sells all zoas colors the same price, its purely based on the number of polyps. this obviously has to do with how the supplier sells them to them.

the best way i have seen a LFS store sell zoas, and even when they have some more of the *rarer* variety, is to just name them by color. and if blue zoas are in short supply but high demand in the area, they justify a higher price accordingly (i have no problem with this). common ones for a certain area are a cheaper price, again designated by color, NOT by name.

i've even heard a store manager admitted, that there are so many different color varieties of zoas coming in from suppliers, that naming them all is almost impossible, and pretty much pointless to go to all of that work to make more money, while decieving customers. people that have no experience in this forum, or any forum for that matter, are going to buy a zoanthid based on the color, not the name....

thus, even though the naming gimmick is fun for the experienced hobbiest, the marketing/business people have taken off with this so they can make a profit off of it which i think is sad.........but that is the way of the times apparently.

with all of that said, for now on.......the only things i will name are "People Eater" type of polyps. which are so easily distinguishable by the green mouth.

other than that, I don't care what safecrackers are, or purple hearted whatevers......cuz i think i have zoas that are much nicer than those anyways.

no offense to you though whodah, i still love your site, so much eye candy to look at. just don't assign any monetary value to each zoa or things will get sooooooooo out of control. :lol:

with all due respect to whodah, and whether some people want to hear this or not........the naming issue HAS driven up prices of some things since I've been watching for well over a year. therefore, i think we need to all sit back, and justify if having fun by naming these zoas (for the hobbiest enjoyment), is really worth the exploitation of our hobby (which the business people are obviously taking advantage of).

I for one, think this hobby is already expensive enough, and I don't think people in this hobby should be taken advantage of by this kind of price gouging practice.

and lastly, if a zoa, or any other *rare* coral comes along and has a name given to it, it should be named after that person, that way that particular strain can be tracked so you KNOW you are getting the real deal. I'm thinking of examples like the "Atlantis Aquarium Superman Danae", "Tyree Limited Editions", "Garf Bonsai"........see what I'm getting at?

safecracker zoas were named after a person, unless you got them from that guy, or got them from a guy who got them from him, YOU DONT HAVE SAFECRACKERS.

i'm sure everyone has opinions, but in all seriousness, this makes the most logical sense to me. sorry for the long rant, everyone got theirs in so i felt left out :lol:

 

[surfnvb7]

Whoda ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ here is my suggestion to ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œre-vampââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ the system that has started a lot of controversy.

I think, that instead of just making one general pages of zoas, and naming each one some creative nameââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦.do a bit of restructuring so to speak.

Break them down into subcatagories, group all varieties of blues into one category, then green, then reds, then purples, then yellows etc etc etc.

Then show all different kinds of zoas that have a primary color under that subcategory. Then you can give them whatever names/aliases people have come up with under that zoa. So if someone lists a certain zoa under the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œblueââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ category, people can list all of the kinds of crazy names under that picture that they came up with for their own zoa(s) that looks similar to that picture.

Other categories (that are far more interesting IMO), are categories that are based on how many different tones of color are in a zoanthid. Like a group for 3 toned zoanthids, 4 toned zoanthids, 5 tone zoanthids etc. and again, post a pic of a zoa, and then others can post similar pics of that zoa and give multiple names for that zoa. You can obviously repeat pics of zoas from the previous color coded categories in here.

The point here, is to take the emphasis off the naming of the zoas, and instead placing the priority on the types of color combinations.

Lastly, you can add some ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œspecialââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ categories, such asââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

Since sooooooooo many people seem to ask ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œwhat is a people eaterââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and get it soooo confused, create a group for those that lists all different kinds of people eaters. Show a picture diagram that shows what the green mouth looks like, versus just a small green center. And again with the option of each picture of a people eater having different names or aliases listed below.

Lastly, create a ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œHOTââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ category, reserved for zoas that are very HOT and in high demand on the market right now, and that have been named after a certain individual (if given permission, Tyree / GARF / Atlantis to name a few examples). Make sure to note that this zoa is a specific strain, and if you did not get it from this person, or a person who got it from this person, than you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have it. (using the safecrackers example). HOWEVER, this category should be used with very high restraint.....or else every zoanthid on zoaid will end up in this category, as I can vouch for everyone when I say "I WANT THEM ALL!!" I'm thinking things like, PPE's, PHE's, Tubs Blue Zoas (THE REAL DEAL)......Zoas that have become truely famous after a year or more, and not just some short fad or a colony that only one person is holding on to and never trading.

So again, different zoas have such slight variations, to which there are sooooooooo many look-a-likes now out there. We need to be able to separate the look-a-likes out from the true strains that came from a specific person. I think using a picture, or group of similar pictures of the same zoa, and listing a large list of aliases is the only way to keep people from either intentionally or unintentionally trying to rip-off a hobbyist. So, again, naming is funââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦..and lets leave it at thatââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚¦the true point of buying a zoa should not be based on the name, but on the colorââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦..therefore creating a picture dedicated to included aliases and look-a-likes, seems only fair to counter this problem.

I hope this helps, sorryââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â"šÂ¬Ã‚¦just had to get it off my mind.
I think this would be a great alternative, and would satisify both parties so people can name whatever zoa and its look-a-like whatever they want, but with that showing all of the aliases, while also keeping a good structure showing what types of color combinations are more promanent than others.

I agree with everything MUCHO has said here, and I have a strange feeling he would kinda like this method also...

 

[whodah]

interesting ideas and reading! i'd definetly need a 'high council of zoanthid naming elders' to implement such things, ha!

in all seriousness: excellent ideas, and the 'elders' idea i like too! i like the idea of spreading the 'burden' around like that, heh!

i was thinking on the commute today on the 'universal naming system' to where a group of peeps, the 'elders' as we're joking about would each independently describe the zoa as per pre-set criteria.

say there's 5 'elders' or whatever.

compare the 5 independent descriptions and come up w/ a concensus. in the case of conflict, majority rules or something.

i was starring at my zoas last night and was thinking that this is no trivial matter...

mouth (like in PPE)
center dot (like in gorilla nipples)
rings (like in eagle eyes)
dust (like in mohawks)
speckles (like in .... oh, one doesn't come to mind immediatly, but know....)
skirts - multicolor, striped, etc.
splotches
lines
...

it'd be a fun task!

 

[JnS]

with respect to everyone.....


naming some premium zoa's that not everyone has is not bad, but I agree with a lot of others that not every zoa needs to have a name.

common zoa's are just that common.

manipulate the color with lights and making a new name just does not do it for me......just seems like a marketing ploy to me.

also to say any one site or any one person knows about every zoa out there is just plain ignorant.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Just an FYI

When I got a chance to visit a big named wholesalers to do a little shopping, all of the zoa's were in one bin. Same price for each rock no matter what the color was or how big or small. They just don't break it down that far as some people do. And they did have some of the "named" zoa's in the tank.

As for naming them, if you feel you must, then go ahead. The only "problem" I have with placing any type of name/LE/Rare type of moniker is that people will then use that to up the price and take advantage of people.

Come on people, these all came from the ocean at one point in time so calling them something dosen't really mean much. If you have to add a name/LE/rare to it just to sell it, then in MY OPNION, your just out to make a fast buck.

Also I've seen in my own tanks how zoa's will change colrs under differen't lights. Example is some pink centered zoa's I got one day. In my main display, 220W of atinic PC and 175W XM 10K MH they were a nice lavender colored. When I moved some into my growout sump w/ 150 W Phoinex 14K DE MH, they were a nice peach colored. Big difference in colors. I also had some that the guy I got them from called them bullseyes that darkened up a lot when moved to the sump.

As for my Zoas, I have some of the "named" ones and some that aren't "named" but look a lot better. As for the selling or trading of them, I'd rather trade you one for one than sell them. That way I can get more variety in my tank. If I have to sell, It's usually 1 buck a poylop, no more, no less, no matter what the color is. But that's just me.

I enjoy my tank and don't mind shareing what I have been able to grow. Heck, I even held a Xmas raffel at our club meeting and made sure everyone left with at least 2 zoa frags from my tank.