Need an expert electrician

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13490100#post13490100 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by J-Burns
I don't think you should have a double pole breaker feeding 2 seperate circuits as a double pole breaker should have both sides tied together to trip together.

Handle ties on multiwire branch circuits were not required until the 2008 Code. Very few places are using the 2008 code yet, so very few places have that requirement.

I suspect you new electrician will either remove the clip holding the breaker together or replace it with 2 single pole breakers.

I think you just contradicted yourself

In any case, He mentioned that the 40A breaker in the main panel was a double pole 220V breaker. That would indicate that it IS handle tied. That is perfectly acceptable and the subpanel with the two 20A breakers does not (and should not have) handle ties. Each 20A breaker is a separate branch circuit.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There is no wire sheath color requirement in the NEC. The wire sheath colors were dreamed up by NEMA and are not law (in most places). Yellow is normally #12, Orange is normally #10 and Black is #8 and larger. The OP stated that #8 was pulled to the box. Looks like #10 to me, but that is a tough call from a photo. The sheath color kinda make you wonder though.

That said, there would have been no need to run #8 or a double pole 40A breaker, unless the OP wanted MORE than (2) 20A circuits. A double pole 20A breaker and 12/3 would be been sufficient to run the (2) 20A branch circuits (with or without a subpanel). However, the larger wire will certainly no hurt anything and will in theory save a little due to its lower resistance and voltage drop.

IF the wire is indeed #10 instead of #8, then swapping the double pole 40A breaker for a double pole 30A breaker will be perfectly acceptable and meet the code requirement.

 

[taylor t]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13490498#post13490498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
The sheath color kinda make you wonder though.

Ya think?

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13490637#post13490637 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taylor t
Ya think?

Was that really called for? There are other people reading this thread who ARE NOT well versed on the subject matter. The more information provided to those people, the more they get to learn.

 

[GlassReef]

OK - you guys are really scaring me now. I hope the 2nd electrician gets here EARLY tomorrow morning!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Glass everything appears to be wired properly. If the wire IS in fact #10, then switching the 40A breaker for a 30A breaker will fix that problem.

 

[GlassReef]

Bean, if the guys tells me tomorrow morning that it is 10 gauge, what would be the max size allowable for the 2 breakers in the sub-panel?

Thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

Glass, the #10 wire can be protected with a 30A breaker max. You have (2) hot wires feeding the subpanel, that gives you 60A (assuming it is #10 wire instead of #8). You could run (4) 15A breakers or (3) 20A breakers in the subpanel. I am not sure if that small panel will hole slimline breakers and it only has two slots, so it looks like you are stuck with (2). That said, a 6 or 8 position panel is only $20 or so.

 

[GlassReef]

Thanks, Bean. In addition to the fact that you are a treasure trove of knowledge, you have a real talent for explaining things so a a layman can understand. Always a pleasure.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks for the kind words

Also note that that 30A hard limit is ONLY for feeders and branch circuits not listed in 240.4(E) through (G) in the NEC. Those sections allow the breaker size to exceed the normal sizes explicitly spelled out in 240.2 and other sections of the code. Things like dedicated motor circuits, HVAC feeders, etc are covered.

So my guess is that if the sparky DID indeed use #10, it is because he is used to doing so for 40A HVAC feeds (acceptable by code). The panel he installed is a typical 2-pole HVAC disconnect panel he wired in and freud may have got the best of his common sense.

Enjoy

 

[GlassReef]

So ... the new guy I had called, to look at the whole thing, just left. He said that the wire laid to the sub-panel was 10 gauge and that the 40A 240V breaker that was installed did NOT meet code for a 10 gauge wire. He originally said I should have the guy that installed the breaker change it to 30A, then all would be OK. When I told him who did the original work, he went out to his truck, came back with a 30A breaker and installed it himself - didn't even charge me. I suppose it was a used one (he kept the 40A breaker). The fact that he did that doesn't say much for the company I originally called. He said the company was "on it's way out" and I would probably only have more problems if I got them back out. Basically he said that if I can live with the 30 amps I should leave it the way it is.

Life goes on ...

 

[BeanAnimal]

You have 60A available at the subpanel (30A per leg). You have (2) 20A breakers for a total of 40A, still 20A left if you ever want to replace the 2 space panel with a 4 space panel. In reality you could use (4) 20A breakers or even (6) 15A breakers on the 30A feed, as you are not likely going to max out (4) 20A or (6) 15A breakers. It is nice to be able to put stuff on its own circuit.

I have a double pole 60A breaker feeding a subpanel in part of the house that has maybe a dozen 20A breakers in it. They feed part of the kitcthen, deck, outdoor lights etc. I would bet the average current draw on the panel is maybe 5A and the max with everything turned on is 35A per leg (about 70A total).

If that sounds confusing just ask.

 

[GlassReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13492635#post13492635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
In reality you could use (4) 20A breakers or even (6) 15A breakers on the 30A feed, as you are not likely going to max out (4) 20A or (6) 15A breakers.

I'll leave it the way it is, for now. For the future, 4 20A breakers is plenty. Thanks, again, for clearing it all up.