New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[dendro982]

Which soft corals (green star polyps, mushrooms) are compatible with Dendronephthya, and which other non- or almost non-photosynthetic corals like Chili coral or Lemnalia?

Anybody tried to grow them in the small tanks? What is lowest color temperature accepted by Dendronephtya?

 

[firefish2020]

They are the same as the others posted on this thread. So whatever they are at least we are all talking about the same thing here.

Actually without proper sclerite identification we can't really say that. You may have something that is 100% different on the inside than the one we have

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6628664#post6628664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by graveyardworm
Is this stuff in english anywhere, and is it available in the US?

HI
UltraPac is now available in the US, together with all the other products of Fauna Marin. What a relief for me not having to order that stuff from Germany anymore.
Coral Reef Aquarium in Seekonk MA (www.inverts.com) has it, as well as www.aquariumobsessed.com.

I am using the UltraPAC for several years now, it is definitely a step into the right direction, but it is less than perfect. It binds the small food particles quite nicely, but when you look at the flocks of mucus you see on Dendros in the reef, it is different to the slime you get with UltraPac. Currently I am working on a new recipe, with higher protein content and a specific amino acid and amino sugar composition. Perhaps that helps. Still the question about the lipid composition and the structure of the mucus is still not solved.
Since the start of my new tank here in the US about a year ago I only lost one out of 7 Dendros and Scleros, and that was because some stupid idiot jammed the glass magnet rigth into it and ripped it off its base. It just faded away in about 3 weeks, no chance.

Jens

 

[Fredfish]

Jens. Can you share some of the details of your food, its composition, and how/why the dendros are feeding on it. Is this basically a fine composition food that mimics detritus?

Unfortunately my German is just good enough that I know I am missing the good stuff when I read the German links.

Fred

 

[graveyardworm]

I searched those links for the UltraPac and cant seem to be able to find it.

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7130026#post7130026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fredfish
Jens. Can you share some of the details of your food, its composition, and how/why the dendros are feeding on it. Is this basically a fine composition food that mimics detritus?

Hi Fred

I think that Dendros and several other non-photosynthetic species feed on coral mucus, or rather the sstuff that is on and in the mucus. I came to that conclusion after a few experiences:
1) Once I went through all my UW pictures of Dendros etc. and did not find a single picture where there wasn't a piece of this snot hanging somewhere.
2) THere are several publications out there that show that coral mucus is quite nutritious. Coral mucus traps a lot of debris and detritus, adding to its nutritioal value or at least making its nutritious spectrum somewhat broader.
3) Coral mucus in nature is rapidly colonized by bacteria, this has been shown in several studies. Bacteria break the polysaccharides into smaller chunks, thereby dissolving the material
4) Over the last few decades, people tried to keep Dendros alive with basically no luck, not matter what they actually fed them. The only long-time success that was reported was from Peter Wilkens, he claimed it to be a result of using his Product Combisan. I don't think so, but he stirred his gravel several times per week, and apparently then the coral opened. What did the coral eat? Not the Combisan, but the detritus. The detritus itself contains a lot of stuff, its composition is depending on what is in the tank. However, all this material is colonized by bacteria.
5) When I used some live or preserved Phytoplankton the Dendros opened, the question is now: What causes this reflex, the Phyto or the bacteria living in the Phyto broth? In an Experiment at the University of Stuttgart some sponges were fed with a bad batch of phyto which was completely contaminated by bacteria. The next day the sponges showed more activity than ever before as measured by several techniques.

UltraPac mimics the coral mucus, not perfectly but it is a start. By binding other stuff to it,either particular material like unicellular algae or dissolved stuff like Amino acids it is possible to at least partially recreate the mucus. As I said it is still less than perfect and I am working together with Fauna Marin on some improvement, but this may take a little while longer. Danny Dame from Holland is using the stuff for the last few months and he has some very good success with it, as well as several other people.
The two US distributors just got the stuff last week or so, it may not be on their website, I would just drop them an email.

The only problem with this kind of food is that it pollutes the water quite heavily. I am using a skimmer plus a refugium, PO4 Adsorber , a just to keep NO3 and PO4 at halfway decent (NO3 20 ppm, PO4 0.1 pm) levels.



Best wishes

Jens

 

[graveyardworm]

Anyone have anything new?

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

HI

No, not really, I lost my biggest Dendro because of the stupidity of a friend of mine, he rammed into it with a big algae Magnet when cleaning the glass and ripped it at the base. Although only about 1/3 of the base was torn off, the coral slowly got smaller and smaller and eventually died after about 4 weeks.
My oldest two Dendros are now one year in my tank, they moved in about a month after setup.
I found one major hassle in my tank, and that is those small brittlestars. They started to become more and more abundant on one colony which eventually did not open anymore. In the end I removed the coral and picked every single star off the coral with tweezers. What a pain! Of course I ripped off a few polyps as well, but the colony is slowly recovering now. The Scleronepthyas are doing pretty well, can't complain. But they appear even more picky with regard to placement in the tank than Dendros. Anyways, as long as there is coral glue I will put my corals where they like to be, it just may take a while before I find the right spot.

Best wishes

Jens

 

[rickyfins]

I am still collecting data for research if anyone is interested. Success stories and tank specs would be great, as well as, any other documented material on your success of keeping Dendronephthya.

thanks,

Rick

 

[reefnewbie54321]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7132945#post7132945 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jens Kallmeyer
Hi Fred

I think that Dendros and several other non-photosynthetic species feed on coral mucus, or rather the sstuff that is on and in the mucus. I came to that conclusion after a few experiences:
1) Once I went through all my UW pictures of Dendros etc. and did not find a single picture where there wasn't a piece of this snot hanging somewhere.
2) THere are several publications out there that show that coral mucus is quite nutritious. Coral mucus traps a lot of debris and detritus, adding to its nutritioal value or at least making its nutritious spectrum somewhat broader.
3) Coral mucus in nature is rapidly colonized by bacteria, this has been shown in several studies. Bacteria break the polysaccharides into smaller chunks, thereby dissolving the material
4) Over the last few decades, people tried to keep Dendros alive with basically no luck, not matter what they actually fed them. The only long-time success that was reported was from Peter Wilkens, he claimed it to be a result of using his Product Combisan. I don't think so, but he stirred his gravel several times per week, and apparently then the coral opened. What did the coral eat? Not the Combisan, but the detritus. The detritus itself contains a lot of stuff, its composition is depending on what is in the tank. However, all this material is colonized by bacteria.
5) When I used some live or preserved Phytoplankton the Dendros opened, the question is now: What causes this reflex, the Phyto or the bacteria living in the Phyto broth? In an Experiment at the University of Stuttgart some sponges were fed with a bad batch of phyto which was completely contaminated by bacteria. The next day the sponges showed more activity than ever before as measured by several techniques.

UltraPac mimics the coral mucus, not perfectly but it is a start. By binding other stuff to it,either particular material like unicellular algae or dissolved stuff like Amino acids it is possible to at least partially recreate the mucus. As I said it is still less than perfect and I am working together with Fauna Marin on some improvement, but this may take a little while longer. Danny Dame from Holland is using the stuff for the last few months and he has some very good success with it, as well as several other people.
The two US distributors just got the stuff last week or so, it may not be on their website, I would just drop them an email.

The only problem with this kind of food is that it pollutes the water quite heavily. I am using a skimmer plus a refugium, PO4 Adsorber , a just to keep NO3 and PO4 at halfway decent (NO3 20 ppm, PO4 0.1 pm) levels.



Best wishes

Jens

Took me 2 days but I finnaly finished reading this thread,
Google sucks at translating .... do you target feed this? Just add it in the tank?, or in the path of the laminer flow directed at your dendros? Also in your tank what are you using for flow?

From what I understand laminer flow is a must, I was thinking of putting one of my streams about 12" in from the right side of the tank directed at the dendros on the left side. If you do target feed do you shut of your powerheads/pumps to give it time to feed?

And one last thing, I see you have a 110 and are keeping mostly non-photo corals, what ones are you keeping? I'm assuming you have things other then dendros. Tank specs would be appreciated aswell.

Thanks,
Tony

 

[Jens Kallmeyer]

HI Tony

I almost never target feed, especially not the Dendros, their polyps are too small to effectively grab and hold food. The other non-photosynthetic corals like Gorgonias etc I target feed about once a week, but they may do get enough without it anyways.
All food is added into the intake of the return pump (1800 gal/h) in the sump, from there it disperses finely in the tank.
Regarding laminar flow, I think this issue is somewhat overrated. The water movement in my tank comes from the 1800gal/h return pump with 2 outlets and a Tunze Wavebox. There is gentle movement in every corner, but hardly something that I would call laminar flow. Even my Dendros slowly move back and forth and they like it.

Tank specs: 100 gal AGA 48x24x24 with two moronic overflows (the most stupid construction I have ever seen!) water movement as described above, 4 x 54 W Fauna Marin Solaris T5 light, 2x54W T5 Aquamedic Lightbar, Fauna Marin Aqua Science bulbs, Grotech HEA 150 Skimmer turned OFF (just as a backup), 36 breeder as sump with 24 h lighting, natural coastal RI sediment, Caulerpa and Cheato. A Phosban reactor with Fauna Marin UltraPhos and some activated carbon runs continuously.
Other non-photosynthetic corals: Tubastrea, Diodogorgia, Muriceopsis, Elisella (?), Scleronephthya, Nephthyigorgia, Studeriotes white and black, Basket star,
Photosynthetic corals: Pseudopterogorgia, Muricea, Montipora, assorted mushrooms, frogspawn, Merulina, one tiny Acropora, Xenia, Leather corals, several other Gorgonias
Fishes and critters: 5x Assessor, 8 x Chromis, 1 x Orange spot blenny, 4 x yellow head Jawfish, 1 x Scopas Tang, 2 x Banggai Cardinal, 7 x peppermint shrimp, 150 hermits, 130 snails, 5 x emerald crab, 1 x Diadema Sea urchin, 2 x Brittle star

Jens

 

[reefnewbie54321]

Thanks for the fast reply and sorry for so many questions its just not many peole have luck w/ non-photo corals

Maybe I missed it but how long have you had them using the ultrapac and do you know anyone else who has been using it succesfuly for awhile?

Do you feel that you "need" to run your phosban reactor to keep it under control?

I read somewhere in here that peopel had trouble using phosban with softys

I just ordered a new tank and it is actualy the same specs as yours (glasscages and there overflows are just as bad if not worse). I havnt bought lighting yet but I was going to go with 4x 54w t5's. As for filtration I am going skimmerless w/ a 40 gallon chaeto fuge w/ DSB (only filled up to 25 gallons), 4 1/2"-5" dsb, and 2 inland aquatics turf scrubbers each rated for 100 gallons. I realy dont want to run a skimmer so I figured I would go overkill on the algae export. Also built a DIY carbon reactor for water yellowing. I still havnt figured out water flow yet ...

I havnt tried a dendro yet but I think I'm going to, do you feed anything else besides the ultrapac? Would you suggest striring sand or using a sponge technique described here? feed pytho?

 

[firefish2020]

"I haven't tried a dendro yet but I think I'm going to, do you feed anything else besides the ultrapac? Would you suggest striring sand or using a sponge technique described here? feed pytho?"

I personally would advise against keeping these corals unless you have a lot of research and trial and error with other corals especially aposymbiotic corals. Until a proven method is derived it is senseless to keep killing these creatures IMO. They are wild captures and until someone gets a good tank raised strain going which will take the collection impact down, I wont advise anyone try this coral unless he or she is well prepared to do what it takes to keep them alive long term.

 

[Siapin]

I have to agree with that statement 100%. Last summer, I went to the Great Barrier Reef, and I saw some dendros that were 4'+ tall, some with 6" wide trunks - yes, trunks. These things are amazing; and it would be such a sad thing to see that these things come to overcatching....

I hate going into LFS, and they say that these things are easy to keep, all you need is some zooplankton. Either they need to stop lying, or they need to learn abou these things, and the inevitable death in all but the most expert aquariasts. This happened to me over a year ago, and I ended up giving the dendro back to the LFS. I noticed gradual shrinking of the dendro, and gave it back, knowing it would die for sure in my own care.

So I studied this forum and other forums like this, and I plan on keeping away from these until I have the knowledge and ability to keep these like the pros in this thread. So my conclusion is:

STAY AWAY FROM THESE IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!



Here's some photos of my trip (more here):

 

[reefnewbie54321]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7298501#post7298501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020
"I haven't tried a dendro yet but I think I'm going to, do you feed anything else besides the ultrapac? Would you suggest striring sand or using a sponge technique described here? feed pytho?"

I personally would advise against keeping these corals unless you have a lot of research and trial and error with other corals especially aposymbiotic corals. Until a proven method is derived it is senseless to keep killing these creatures IMO. They are wild captures and until someone gets a good tank raised strain going which will take the collection impact down, I wont advise anyone try this coral unless he or she is well prepared to do what it takes to keep them alive long term.

Ive been following this thread from start to finish, along with other threads on verious boards ... reading w/e articles I can find. Looking at reviews of all the food/flow products mentioned. I dont think any one will ever have success with this coral unless you try. My tank is being setup as we speak and is being designed to keep this species. It wasnt like I just saw this thread and said hey I think I'll try to keep a carnation. Ive had some good luck with various other corals that many people cant aswell.

Also about wild colection of corals ... no matter what we do these corals are still going to be collected and sold to people who dont know how hard it is to keep. Theres no point in letting them sit and rot in unsuspecting reefers tanks, instead I want to contribute to "how to keep" guide this thread is providing us and hopefully someday we wil have enough information that instead of the colorful SPS tanks we always see we will have non-photo soft tanks.

 

[Siapin]

That's really a great way to approach it. I guess that every dendro (and other non-photosynthetic corals) afficionado can help in perfecting the husbandry of these gorgeous species, thus benefitting reefers as a whole. Good luck...it's really cool to see that people have been successful for years with these things.

One thing I'm interested in is finding out what is going to happen to energy's dendro in his 1700g sting ray tank. It gets no preferential treatment, yet has been thriving so far.

 

[reefnewbie54321]

Wow, guess I missed that thread ... I dont check out the Large Tank Section very often, I'll have to see.

My guess is hes having such good luck becuase of such a large volume. Maybe a more abundednt poulation of bacteria/coral mucus for it to feed on there for it doesnt need supplemental feedings. I havnt seen the tank at all so I dont know

 

[rickyfins]

And dont forget fish poo! I haven't had anyone pm me or even respond to me about my research yet. I am in the middle of grant proposals and I would like some input here. Any would be good, if you want me to just keep quiet and stand by and watch these corals die without your help OK, I got the hint!

thanks,

Rick

 

[Siapin]

Yea, it's a pretty popular thread. It's an unbelievable setup to say the least. It may be thriving on exactly that, a big bio diversity/mucus.

 

[graveyardworm]

Government grants WOW, I cant even convince my accountant that this isnt just a hobby I mean look at how much I spent last year. I just wish I could show some income from it to deduct from. Sorry thats about as much as I can help. I'm pretty much just tagging along and trying to learn myself.

Would it be possible to post a link to energy's thread here. I assume thats what youre talking about.