aninjaatemyshoe
New member
Ha, didn't know who I was talking with. So, do you have any recommendations for how I could keep it cold? Maybe I could place the whole thing in a Styrofoam cooler with packs of gel-ice.
Last edited:
New Deodronephthya sp. study group?
- Thread starter charles matthews
- Start date
That would most likely work if the insulation is thick enough. I would try it and run some tests in place just to see what temps you can keep it at.
Something I have thought of in the past would be to make a cylinder that is a little larger then the OD of the syringe that could hold a decent volume of gel ice in. You could have a couple of those and change them out daily. I would then wrap that cylinder in Nitroprene - http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/21819 - for maximum insulation. The beauty about that insulation is it's extremelly durable and won't break down over time like most others. I use it all over my systems, both in and out of water. I could send you some so you could see if it'll work in your application. Just email using the email link above ^^^^
Something I have thought of in the past would be to make a cylinder that is a little larger then the OD of the syringe that could hold a decent volume of gel ice in. You could have a couple of those and change them out daily. I would then wrap that cylinder in Nitroprene - http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/21819 - for maximum insulation. The beauty about that insulation is it's extremelly durable and won't break down over time like most others. I use it all over my systems, both in and out of water. I could send you some so you could see if it'll work in your application. Just email using the email link above ^^^^
Kreeger1
KING LEAR
I picked up the tropic marin stuff from salty critter, www.saltycritter.com
So far I like the way the corals acted when I used it, not sure if they fed yet, but they all did open up
Erik
So far I like the way the corals acted when I used it, not sure if they fed yet, but they all did open up
Erik
dtaylor123
New member
Did you see my earlier post? It should be a long term and relatively inexpensive solution and you would never have to worry about ice.
Dan
aninjaatemyshoe
New member
The thermoelectric cooler looks like a good idea. I already have a mini-fridge that I think I'm going to try. The main issue that I see is that the liquid has to travel a distance between the pump and where it outlets at the aquarium. The way I have things setup at the moment, the pump needs to be on the left side of the aquarium. I believe, ideally, the outlet should be where I have it; at the bottom right side of the aquarium. I'm going to try some thick insulation for the tubing so that I can keep the temperature down before it exits.
GreshamH, you mentioned before that one should not mix Shellfish Diet or any of the IA or RN foods with saltwater. What about mixing two different products together, such as the Shellfish Diet and Rotifeast?
Charles, on an entirely different note, I noticed reading back a bit that you had been dosing silicate for awhile to boost diatom growth. Are you still doing this? I've been considering it for awhile as a decent way to spur growth of copepods and other small things that might help feed my tank. Also, I wonder if the diatoms themselves might help feed the dendros directly.
GreshamH, you mentioned before that one should not mix Shellfish Diet or any of the IA or RN foods with saltwater. What about mixing two different products together, such as the Shellfish Diet and Rotifeast?
Charles, on an entirely different note, I noticed reading back a bit that you had been dosing silicate for awhile to boost diatom growth. Are you still doing this? I've been considering it for awhile as a decent way to spur growth of copepods and other small things that might help feed my tank. Also, I wonder if the diatoms themselves might help feed the dendros directly.
For long term storage I still would say not to do it, but for a daily use I don't forsee any problems.
SD has diatoms in it
I'm telling yah, I have the best insulation, just email me your full shipping address with daytime phone and I'll ship some out for you to try it. I even have it in tubes (3/4" ID w/ 1" wall).
SD has diatoms in it
I'm telling yah, I have the best insulation, just email me your full shipping address with daytime phone and I'll ship some out for you to try it. I even have it in tubes (3/4" ID w/ 1" wall).
charles matthews
New member
Charles Matthews here.
Great discussions!
Some points:
1) Regarding Peter Wilkins, I've tried to find out about him. If you read his book, which is out of print, he stirs the gravel weekly and adds dust fine food twice daily and keeps them at low 70s temps. BUT- I haven't been able to confirm the rumor that he has kept them several years. I'm surprised that he hasn't published. If anyone has a way to get to him, please do so!
2) Detritus stirring- it doesn't work. I've built detritus/sand automatic stirrers, kept fish to stir the sand, manually stirred, squeezed sponges...I suspect that detritus quickly becomes less nutritious in our tanks. In any event, you can't keep NP corals with aquarim detritus, in spite of the rumors about it.
3) Hemocytometers: I'd be interested in anyone doing cell counts with these. But: as long as you are constantly infusing something in this range, I suspect you will be alright.
4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime.
5) I still dose silica, as per Holmes-Farley. I use 12 drops silica daily, together with 12 drops Lugol's, and vodka. (Even though SD has diatoms). Chuck brings up an interesting point; the use of vodka in these systems didn't seem to do much for nutrients, but did increase the bacterial mucus on the sides of the tank, and then ultimately increased the copepod population. I think the use of silica, iodine, and vodka all are means of increasing the nutritional value of what's scraped off the aquarium walls. As Charles Delbeek has noted, I also get a response to cleaning the aquarium walls.
6) I like the idea of a simpler system- intellectually as well as the fact that I am tired of the work! I am experimenting with an "algal film bioreactor" which uses 3 cu. ft. of positively bouyant translucent beads from the bead filter manufacturers in a 44 gallon Brute container with a 400 watt MH lamp continuously. This gives about 1000 sq. feet of "algae scrubber". The circulation pump turns over these beads, which essentially act as a windshield wiper and liberate algal film back to the aquarium (a 55 gallon experimental tank). No skimmer is used, and there will be no substrate to start. The tank will be fed organic fertilizer (Espoma brand cottonseed meal, kelp meal, and/or blood meal) to maintain NSW nutrient levels. (The tank will be "demand fed" to target nutrient levels). No other feeding will be used. I'm sure I can peg nutrients where I want them, and suspect I will get acceptable amounts of algal cells and bacteriofilm in the water. It will be interesting to see if stony corals accept such a system, assuming its ability to start from extremely low nutrients and concentrate them into cellular material in the water. This might be the simpler type of system many of would like to see. However- the "Stottlemire method" is the one that Chuck has shown us to work, and that is how I am maintaining my larger system and stock source for frags.
Great discussions!
Some points:
1) Regarding Peter Wilkins, I've tried to find out about him. If you read his book, which is out of print, he stirs the gravel weekly and adds dust fine food twice daily and keeps them at low 70s temps. BUT- I haven't been able to confirm the rumor that he has kept them several years. I'm surprised that he hasn't published. If anyone has a way to get to him, please do so!
2) Detritus stirring- it doesn't work. I've built detritus/sand automatic stirrers, kept fish to stir the sand, manually stirred, squeezed sponges...I suspect that detritus quickly becomes less nutritious in our tanks. In any event, you can't keep NP corals with aquarim detritus, in spite of the rumors about it.
3) Hemocytometers: I'd be interested in anyone doing cell counts with these. But: as long as you are constantly infusing something in this range, I suspect you will be alright.
4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime.
5) I still dose silica, as per Holmes-Farley. I use 12 drops silica daily, together with 12 drops Lugol's, and vodka. (Even though SD has diatoms). Chuck brings up an interesting point; the use of vodka in these systems didn't seem to do much for nutrients, but did increase the bacterial mucus on the sides of the tank, and then ultimately increased the copepod population. I think the use of silica, iodine, and vodka all are means of increasing the nutritional value of what's scraped off the aquarium walls. As Charles Delbeek has noted, I also get a response to cleaning the aquarium walls.
6) I like the idea of a simpler system- intellectually as well as the fact that I am tired of the work! I am experimenting with an "algal film bioreactor" which uses 3 cu. ft. of positively bouyant translucent beads from the bead filter manufacturers in a 44 gallon Brute container with a 400 watt MH lamp continuously. This gives about 1000 sq. feet of "algae scrubber". The circulation pump turns over these beads, which essentially act as a windshield wiper and liberate algal film back to the aquarium (a 55 gallon experimental tank). No skimmer is used, and there will be no substrate to start. The tank will be fed organic fertilizer (Espoma brand cottonseed meal, kelp meal, and/or blood meal) to maintain NSW nutrient levels. (The tank will be "demand fed" to target nutrient levels). No other feeding will be used. I'm sure I can peg nutrients where I want them, and suspect I will get acceptable amounts of algal cells and bacteriofilm in the water. It will be interesting to see if stony corals accept such a system, assuming its ability to start from extremely low nutrients and concentrate them into cellular material in the water. This might be the simpler type of system many of would like to see. However- the "Stottlemire method" is the one that Chuck has shown us to work, and that is how I am maintaining my larger system and stock source for frags.
The thought had crossed my mind the degradation of the SD might actually be creating some extra reaction from the dendros but as for the product itself I can't recommend leaving it in too hot of conditions for too long. It's on the "more" perishable side of things...like milk
What do you mean "in the bucket"? Is this the "mixed in seawater bucket method" spoken about earlier? IMO the dendros aren't just eating the rotifers in Rotif-Feast but also the alginate broken down by bacteria
Kolognekoral
New member
Just to let you all know, I have requested a forum for non-phosynthetic corals and marine animals and there is a thread under Feedback and Questions explaining the plan. Please add your voice to this request!
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1325215
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1325215
sammy33
Member
Re: New Deodronephthya sp. study group?
Ha...the very first post in this thread also included a request for a dedicated forum to this most fascinating topic. I have been following this thread for year(s) now and have been reluctant to post certain questions/ideas in this thread in order to not dillute it. It would be nice to start some other threads centered around this topic.
I would sincerely like to discuss the keeping of these type corals which I like to call NPS.
I think a dedicated forum here on RC would be the most appropriate place to post my NPS build thread. :rollface:
Ha...the very first post in this thread also included a request for a dedicated forum to this most fascinating topic. I have been following this thread for year(s) now and have been reluctant to post certain questions/ideas in this thread in order to not dillute it. It would be nice to start some other threads centered around this topic.
I would sincerely like to discuss the keeping of these type corals which I like to call NPS.
I think a dedicated forum here on RC would be the most appropriate place to post my NPS build thread. :rollface:
Whalehead9
New member
This is a system that I want to one day build and all of the information that can be discussed without having to browse at least 4-5 forums(Advanced topics, softie, lps, other inverts and DIY for feeding systems) just to get all the info. I think that it is time to build a NPS forum, just to make it easier for interested followers to acquire the knowledge required to create a system that allows all the involved organisms to survive.
charles matthews
New member
Charles Matthews here.
Go, Sammy!
Please continue your requests for a focum dedicated to NP organisms! The topic has always begged for an integrated view of the general problem of natural feeding levels in reef systems. Join the movement- WE WANT OUR OWN FORUM!!!
I don't want to be rough on Reef Central, who havae been helpful to us. But, if RC won't start a forum, perhaps someone else here would start a web site for us - take advertising- and we can start to attract manufacturers (such as prop or other pump types, food products, etc) to this site. Come on, RC, move us up, or "let my people go!".
Go, Sammy!
Please continue your requests for a focum dedicated to NP organisms! The topic has always begged for an integrated view of the general problem of natural feeding levels in reef systems. Join the movement- WE WANT OUR OWN FORUM!!!
I don't want to be rough on Reef Central, who havae been helpful to us. But, if RC won't start a forum, perhaps someone else here would start a web site for us - take advertising- and we can start to attract manufacturers (such as prop or other pump types, food products, etc) to this site. Come on, RC, move us up, or "let my people go!".
aninjaatemyshoe
New member
I figure if mantis shrimp can have an entire forum dedicated to themselves, then non-photosynthetic corals should have their own forum. Even if you take the argument that all of the NPS stuff could be lumped into soft corals/LPS/other invertebrates, you can't argue against the fact that they require their own very different care. The care needed for Dendros and Scleros is very different from the care one provides all of the photosynthetic soft corals. They aren't simply more difficult varieties of soft corals, they require a unique approach. Same goes for Tubastrea and Dendrophyllia when comparing with other LPS. Then let's not forget the fire corals, which forum would one post a question about them?
Kolognekoral
New member
OK, folks! We have our own forum! Start posting threads.
This is gonna be great.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&forumid=555&x=13&y=9
This is gonna be great.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&forumid=555&x=13&y=9
reefkeeper2
Premium Member
I've seen many references here and elsewhere to the dosing of vodka but no specifics as to how it is dosed or in what amount. It seems that the biofilm produced by the vodka is of some importance, but it's exact contribution is still not completely understood. Nevertheless, the use of vodka appears to be essential. Is there a general rule of thumb for dosing vodka such as so many mls per gallon per day?
Whalehead9
New member
Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!
reefkeeper2
Premium Member
Did you start out with 10ml or did you work your way up to it?
