New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[billsreef]

Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential.

I can't figure why anyone would use Miracle Grow, other than it being available at the corner garden center. For about $25, shipped, one can buy a pack of the ingredients necessary to mix up a concentrate of Guillards media that will feed about 3,000 gallons of phyto cultures. That's less than a penny per gallon of phyto that is high quality and nutritious. Yet hobbyist that will spend lots of money on lights, controllers, pumps, and corals will go and buy Miracle Grow that will grow phyto with the nutritional content of potato chips

 

[GreshamH]

I can't figure why anyone would use Miracle Grow, other than it being available at the corner garden center. For about $25, shipped, one can buy a pack of the ingredients necessary to mix up a concentrate of Guillards media that will feed about 3,000 gallons of phyto cultures. That's less than a penny per gallon of phyto that is high quality and nutritious. Yet hobbyist that will spend lots of money on lights, controllers, pumps, and corals will go and buy Miracle Grow that will grow phyto with the nutritional content of potato chips

We must have been split at birth Bill :lol:

 

[billsreef]

We must have been split at birth Bill :lol:

Split by an entire continent

 

[ari5736]

Okay guys I get the point I will switch over to F2. I was just following the word on the street with the miracle grow.

Some questions I have though. First can the phyto-culture be grown nutritionally without the metals? Are the metals not taken up by the phyto in growth? What point do the metals serve if they are not taken up by the phyto in growth?

Also is there any concensus of what is the best mix of food to serve dendros (phyto, rotifers, artemia, oyster feast, combinations)? How much concerntrated food per gallon of aquarium water if you have just one or two colonies?

 

[uhuru]

I don't think there is a consensus, which is why you feed a lot of everything, but not too much

 

[CLINTOS]

Cyanobacteria is nothing you'd want to feed to NPS corals so I am unsure why you brought that to this discussion. Now if you could say that about Tet, pav, TW, Iso, etc then it might have a bearing on this discussion.

Sustainable growth and nutritional value are widely different and a poor nutritional value phyto is pretty much useless to the animals we want to feed.

The company I work for is the worlds largest producer of marine phytoplakton well, behind mother nature of course. The nutrient requirement of phyto is well documented. This is based on producing phyto with the best possible nutritional value. You do not want this nutrient media (F/2) in your reef tank. This is why companies like us remove it prior to selling it to our customers globally.

remove it or let the phyto totaly consome it leaving no fertalizer?

asking because i'm trying to come as close as I can to a diy quality phytoplankton

thanks

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

If you let the phyto completely consume the available nutrients, you will effectively be putting it into starvation. This will make the nutritional value of the phyto plummet. From my understanding, you need to grow and harvest the phyto under particular conditions for it to have a good amount of nutritional value.

 

[billsreef]

Harvesting at peak density will give you the lowest amount of extra nutrients, other than spinning the culture down in a centrifuge.

 

[GreshamH]

what they both said.

 

[C. Schuhmacher]

IH

This is not my sponsor bord but i hope i can answered also
I think you missunderstand some things of our products
i will try to clear it

The instructions from Fauna Marin about how to use this system are confusing and inconsistent. For one thing, they include the Ultra Life in the mix, which from what I can tell is for both improving the efficiency of a skimmer and as a delivery mechanism for nutrients to corals. They say to combine this with the Ultra Clam and the Ultra Sea Fan and add it next to a filter... So, is the idea to basically have it immediately removed from your system? Then, they have you apparently add the Ultra Min D separately. If it is not used to bind the food, how is it a replacement for Ultra Pac?

***
I did not say to put the food in a filter i say give it in the near of a pump or in the tank.
I write meanwhile a huge manual about the Dendro and seafan system and it is at the moment an the translation.
We developed our systems over the years , so products changed and if i see i can make something better we do it.
Pac was the first product for this system and after long time run and many many years experiences it showed that it work better when i add the parts separatly in the tank.
I did not want that the user has to buy 2 products so i make the active ingriedients in the MIN D and another part in the foods.
I thought the costumer will be happy when they did not need to buy so much bottles....



From what I can tell, Ultra Min D is just sugar, amino acids, and trace elements. It not like any artificial coral mucus I would envision. Coral mucus is comprised of polysaccharides, proteins, and lipids and acts as a food delivery mechanism for the heterotrophic regions of the reef. People have been dosing sugar (a.k.a. carbon dosing), AA's, and trace elements for a long time now. How is this system an improvement?


**** Your Post showed me that you did not understand about the physical and chemical reaction of the coral mucus after ! it leaves the corals.
Dendros and other only can eat the mucus which is in water not which is on the coral.
To get the right mix i need also some polymers and some enzymes but i cannot and will not write them on the bottles cause then my competitors know exactly how it works.
No salt producer even not Coca Cola write what is exact in and that is stuff which you drink ?

What particularly bothers me about the Fauna Marin system is that, as a commercial endeavor, they keep most of how it works (or supposedly works) on the hush hush.

** Did not understand what you mean


As hobbyists interested in improving the base of knowledge for how to care for these creatures, we are almost completely in the dark. They no doubt have been performing some amount of research into this, but whatever their findings (good or bad) we will never know. For instance, why did they discontinue Ultra Pac?

*** Like i said i find a better and cheaper way for the hobbiest so what is wrong on that ?


They say that they have a replacement in Ultra Min D, but it doesn't add up.

*** it is in why you think i will not do ?

Instead, we are supposed to just accept what they advertise. In a hobby that has a glut of companies selling unnecessary additives at premium cost, I find it hard to be so trusting.

*** Why you thought it is wrong what i said, Cause iám a new company not so well known like some other´s which till today sold cheap sugar solutions or
Spirulina as perfect coral food.
I try to work so fast as possible to explain so much is possible and i write
99 % of the things on the bottle which are inside
maybe a mistake to be honest and not write a bullshit on the bottles like many other do.

You can ask me whenever you want about the products and i will try to help so good as possible how the stuff works.

rgds Claude

 

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Claude, thank you for providing a response.

I think there is a bit of a language barrier we are dealing with here, but I will try to readdress some of my points.

1. Here are the instructions as they are written in the Fauna Marin Sponsor Forum:

Product highlight thread -

Fauna Marin Dendro System

Dosing instructions for Fauna Marin Dendro System

Mix
one Teaspoon -

SEAFAN
CLAM
U Life

Mix in a container and add from this mix 1/2 TS to a water volume of 260 gallons. Add near a filter

add also 10 drops / Ultramin D to 260 gal of water volume

Dosing instructions courtesy of Claude (Fauna Marin)

So, it did say to add it near a filter, which doesn't make sense. You are now saying to add it near a pump, which I find more understandable.

2. I have a better understanding now of how Ultra Min D works, knowing now that there was a labeling error that gave the Ultra Min D bottles the same label as Ultra Min S. I did not know that Ultra Pac was included in the Ultra Min D bottle, and there was no clear indication of that on the product labeling nor any of the information I could gather from the Fauna Marin site or sponsor forum.

Also, I understand that you cannot give away your trade secrets, but that brings me to what I was trying to say in my next comment.

3. The problem with a complex additive with some unknown components, such as Ultra Min D, is that us hobbyists cannot evaluate the scientific merit behind the unknown components. We are instead only able to try your product and see if there are positive results. This is not just a problem of additives from Fauna Marin, but from any company making additives with secret components. I think the only way to get around the conflict between the company's desire to keep its trade secrets and the hobbyists' skepticism about putting unknown things in their tanks is to provide as much evidence of the product's efficacy as possible. My major complaint has been that there has been very little information about the Ultra Min D product to this point. However, I am starting to get a better picture of what it does now.

 

[ari5736]

Any updates on Chuck's new project? Also have people out there had success with Fauna Marin's dendro products?

 

[ari5736]

What temperatures are you guys running on your dendro tanks?

 

[herring_fish]

Dendronepthya Nudibranch?

Dendronepthya Nudibranch?

I noticed that there was a Nudibranch moving over one of my dendros/leminellias. I first saw it at the base of one of the stocks and it moved up to the tip and then went down a branch. From there it moved off onto the rock. I picked it up and moved it to the sump.

I got four of these coral a little over tow weeks ago and they are the most resent additions to the tank. It sames to be full grown so I am surprised that I haven't seen it before.

One of the four corals is deflated so I moved it to a new spot just before I so the Nudibranch. I though for a moment that it might have been eating the yellow coral and moved on when I move it because the Nudibranch was a tan-ish yellow, just about the color of the coral but it moved off of the biggest of the four (purple) looking for something else.

The lights went off just after I moved the slug and I couldn't find him so I added a similar picture. I will try to add a real picture tomorrow.

Should I get rid of it right away?

 

[billsreef]

Nudi's typically are found on their food, though they can wander sometimes. They also tend to look much like their food. After all, what better camouflage than what you are hanging out on and eating. So, I'd be inclined to remove it.

 

[Kreeger1]

I've got to agree with billsreef on this. They are cool looking but do massive damage when they can

 

[herring_fish]

This is a real picture of the critter.

OK I got it out of the system. Thank you

Now, do I need to worry babies?

 

[ari5736]

I'm not an phyto expert by any means but I do work with Phycologists and I guess I'm a bit more informed ont he subject then most reefers :lol:

aninjaaremyshoe hit it square on the head... a centrifuge is the best way, or a transdential (sp?) flow filter or even some filter media that can filter down to 1 micron. All methods require human hands and can't be automated to feed your aquarium on it's own.

Miracle Grow is no substitute for F/2. It's formulated for terrestrial plants and does not have the vitamins and trace metals that phyto need and what it does have is in the wrong amounts. It will grow phyto but that phyto will by no means live up to it's true potential. Phyto needs F/2 in a certain concentration and that is nothing you'd want to toss in your aquarium as it will no doubt result in negative things

CO2 is widely used for growing phyto in large volumes as it really helps knock down the PH amongst other benefits. Unfortunately it's no substitute for F/2 or amount of F/2.

This is why the reactors have always been an oddity for me. Back in 99 I got into phyto feeding and tried every available source. I found only one wouldn't give me huge nuisance algae outbreaks so I looked into why that was. At the time only two removed the F/2 media and of those two one was grown a few cities over from me. I spoke with the owners, got the down low and the rest is history

With the phyto that I have now produced, do you think I should let the phyto settle to the bottom of the jug, spill out the water and just keep the phyto on the bottom as an additive to my tank, or will this still have to much nutrients to make it worth while to add. P.S. I am now using Shellfish diet, but would hate to waste all of that phyto I produced. Maybe as an alternative I can start a roti cultire with the phyto produced? Thanks again.

 

[billsreef]

Now, do I need to worry babies?

That is possible, so keep a close eye out for any. Might only be noticed at first as a coral that isn't opening as expected.

With the phyto that I have now produced, do you think I should let the phyto settle to the bottom of the jug, spill out the water and just keep the phyto on the bottom as an additive to my tank, or will this still have to much nutrients to make it worth while to add. P.S. I am now using Shellfish diet, but would hate to waste all of that phyto I produced. Maybe as an alternative I can start a roti cultire with the phyto produced? Thanks again.

Most live phyto isn't going to settle appreciably without being centrifuged. In general, I find simply waiting the culture is at max density is sufficient to avoid excess nutrients if you have a good refugia on your tank.

 

[herring_fish]

After being attacked by that nudibranch, one mydendros/leminellias is doing great, the second seams to be recovering. The third disintegrated and the fourth was pretty big but it is just hanging straight down. It has not pumped at all in three days.

What should I do with it? Does it have any chance of recovery? should I try to frag it? If so, how. ....or should just pitch it?