CoralNerd
Active member
Looking forward to hearing what your apex data reveals on tanks temperature.
Hopefully all is good.
New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump
- Thread starter fredro
- Start date
Hopefully all is good.
He has a real problem and we have been trying to trouble shoot a new product. He is an experience aquarist with a good rep. on RC.
RJ
Eastamherstbias
New member
This whole thing is exhausting, It is two people. All pumps will give off some heat. Yes some heat of course will go into system. But there is no "if there is smoke there is fire kinda thing". I don't see any issue on this and I am normally all about conspiracy theories.
Johnseye
Reef Addict
I said exchange not return. My hope was something was wrong with my pump, not the line. I was interested in exchanging mine for another.
If I didn't like the pump I would have said it and not wasted my time.
laverda
Well-known member
If you put a pump in the sump that is using 50 watts more then your old pump. it is pretty much the same as adding a 50 watt heater that is on all the time to your system. The amount of heat introduced when run externally will be substantially less as most of the heat is dissipating to the air around the pump. One big advantage of external pumps is much less heat transfer depending on the pump. Running the pump internally will keep it cooler, so it should last longer.
Eastamherstbias
New member
I agree.
sleepydoc
Team RC
This
And this.
No. If it is submersed, the power used by the pump is dissipated into the water as heat.
Yes, the power consumed by the controller will count towards the total power used, but unless there is a significant defect in the controller, the power consumption shouldn't vary much from unit to unit. Even it it does, that will not affect how much the pump heats the water. What you are hypothesizing is that one pump/controller combo has a pump that is using significantly less energy than average and at the same time a controller that is using significantly more; essentially two defects that occur at the same time to offset each other. Possible but very unlikely.
In general no. There are ways of indirectly measuring current and voltage, but most of us won't be able to do that.
As gcarroll said, internal vs external is a totally different game. With internal all of the power consumed is transferred to the water. With external pumps, it is either transferred to the water or to the air. The relative proportion of these depends very much on the design of the pump. Your RD3 pump is not somehow keeping all the power consumption in the controller, rather is just more efficient at dissipating the heat to the air so it doesn't transfer it to the water.
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Johnseye
Reef Addict
How then could one pump be more efficient at dissipating the heat outside of water but not inside?
The RD3 is 80w at the wall and the M1 is 90. With the RD3 having a controller it could be 70w at the pump and the M1 80 at the pump.
I'm very very tempted to use a Fluval SP4 in the same application to compare temps. It's an 88w pump but AC. No controller. Theoretically all 88w of heat will go into the water. The tank water should then increase from what it is now. Something I found interesting in that pump's advertising is "Low heat transfer to energy consumption. Fluval pumps run at a relatively cool temperature to avoid affecting the water temperature of the tank, whether running internally or externally." Not sure exactly what that means if 88w in is 88w out.
I would like to get back to all users experiences with the system that makes up the Vectra and controllers. Heat is just one aspect and doubt it of major importance.
One last thing about this heat discussion. I am not an engineer or scientist and I am sure there are others out there better suited to explain all this but I will give one LAST attempt as I understand it.
First, it is very good general rule to say watts mean added heat in the aquarium. A 100 watt...pick your equipment... will put more heat into your system than a 50 watt version of the same type of equipment. But just because any piece of equipment consumes a certain amount of power does NOT mean all 80 watts are converted to heat. That would make the equipment 100% efficient and nothing is 100% efficient. In fact our heaters are far more efficient in producing heat from electrical power than pumps. I know I am stating the obvious but I think this needed to be said.
Pumps use those watts to do work and, as a by-product, heat. DC pumps are more efficient than AC pumps that is why they can move the same amount of water using less power. than an AC version. So DC pumps also produce less heat. So an 80 watt pump DOES NOT produce 80 watts worth of heat. A good bit of the power goes moving the impeller thus moving water. Some pumps produce less heat for a certain amount of work- moving water. There are many variables as why one pump would be more efficient than others and I will let that go as you can already figure out most or all of them.
If I am wrong on the above, I invite someone with more experience in this field to explain the error of my ways. If not, a lot of what has been previous said, right or wrong or just confused has taken up much space. So some 80 watt pumps are more efficient than others. It is too early to understand where exactly where the Vectra stands.
I sure would like to hear from other Vectra owners about their install, use and satisfaction or disappointment in their pumps.
RJ
One last thing about this heat discussion. I am not an engineer or scientist and I am sure there are others out there better suited to explain all this but I will give one LAST attempt as I understand it.
First, it is very good general rule to say watts mean added heat in the aquarium. A 100 watt...pick your equipment... will put more heat into your system than a 50 watt version of the same type of equipment. But just because any piece of equipment consumes a certain amount of power does NOT mean all 80 watts are converted to heat. That would make the equipment 100% efficient and nothing is 100% efficient. In fact our heaters are far more efficient in producing heat from electrical power than pumps. I know I am stating the obvious but I think this needed to be said.
Pumps use those watts to do work and, as a by-product, heat. DC pumps are more efficient than AC pumps that is why they can move the same amount of water using less power. than an AC version. So DC pumps also produce less heat. So an 80 watt pump DOES NOT produce 80 watts worth of heat. A good bit of the power goes moving the impeller thus moving water. Some pumps produce less heat for a certain amount of work- moving water. There are many variables as why one pump would be more efficient than others and I will let that go as you can already figure out most or all of them.
If I am wrong on the above, I invite someone with more experience in this field to explain the error of my ways. If not, a lot of what has been previous said, right or wrong or just confused has taken up much space. So some 80 watt pumps are more efficient than others. It is too early to understand where exactly where the Vectra stands.
I sure would like to hear from other Vectra owners about their install, use and satisfaction or disappointment in their pumps.
RJ
I would expect to see some (particulately with a convection cooled pump), though I'd expect it to be just a small fraction compared to an internal installation.
tkeracer619
New member
I am an engineer and while I don't want to pick your statement apart it is incorrect. The water moved by a pump requires energy to move it, this part of your statement is correct. What you are missing is that the water that is moved holds energy and as the water slows to a stop due to friction will release that energy as heat. Thus 100% of the energy supplied to an internal pump is transferred to the water as heat. A 100w submersible pump and a 100w heater supply exactly the same amount of heat to a water column. A watt is a unit of heat.
I just logged in after a few weeks of drowning in work + some personal issues and am honestly surprised at where this thread is. I'm going to take a minute and see how you folks got here...
Never taken a fluid dynamics course in my life so I have some trouble with this as I wonder where all the heat genterated from 5 submerged pumps and 2 prop pumps goes? Think I have a total or around 300 watts from these sources and I STILL HAVE TO USE a 300 watt heater to maintain a 2-3 degree differerent with my house? It seems to me you are saying a pump it a machine that is 100% efficient as a heater? Does not make sense to me.....
Thanks for the input and I look forward to hearing more although we might want to transfer to another thread.
RJ
1st law of thermodynamics
I'm tagging along hoping for more reviews of the pump, less about the anecdotes of excessive heat transfer!
CoralNerd
Active member
Here you go talk about heat coming from pumps here. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2528341.
Continue on with any other vectra pump talk below [emoji16]
Continue on with any other vectra pump talk below [emoji16]
tkeracer619
New member
Evaporation. It takes 540 calories to evaporate 1 gram of water. A gallon of water evaporation is slightly over 2 million calories of heat energy removed from your tank. Our tanks typically have a ton of surface area and evaporate a lot of water per day so 40watts is typically insignificant on a 120gal tank.
It would take 40w of heat ~36 hours to increase an insulated 120gal barrel of water by 5 degrees but we don't have insulated barrels of water.
This is a great article from Advanced Aquarist that gives you all the formulas to figure this stuff out as well as explains many factors in great detail.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/7/aafeature1
Jonseye, are you using heaters on this system? How many gallons of water are you evaporating per week or day? Do you run a fan?
BTW if anyone wants to know how hot 40 watts really is... grab a 40w light bulb and turn it on.
It would take 40w of heat ~36 hours to increase an insulated 120gal barrel of water by 5 degrees but we don't have insulated barrels of water.
This is a great article from Advanced Aquarist that gives you all the formulas to figure this stuff out as well as explains many factors in great detail.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/7/aafeature1
Jonseye, are you using heaters on this system? How many gallons of water are you evaporating per week or day? Do you run a fan?
BTW if anyone wants to know how hot 40 watts really is... grab a 40w light bulb and turn it on.
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Early pre-production pumps did have Meanwell power but the M1 has a no name black brick made in China. Don't know about the L1 as they have just shipped from Eco Tech. The controller does indeed have a hefty heat sink attached.
Yes, the EcoSmart Live program is showing only pump watts not controller power supply. Tim Marks mention this in his interview with Jake Adams. The 80 watts number is confined only to pump.
RJ
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