I don't think a week is long enough.
new fish deaths
- Thread starter johno4
- Start date
And while Im asking questions, does anyone think my qt I performed is flawed? Was I "unlucky"? What should I do differently? I havent lost a fish in years so I am really baffled.
No sounds like a reasonably sound practice.
There are different ways to approach it but qt with observation is a big plus.
Preventative treatment is arguable particularly with copper and formalin and potential sensitivity issues for some fish. Althouygh I used to give all new fish a formalin bath pre qt without observable ill effect.
Hypo is often unreliable for ich,ime, and won't do anything for velvet,brokklynella or flukes.
Ammonia control is often an issue in qt and using detoxifiers with copper meds is lethal.
For me the easiest and safest for ich prevention and treatment is qt with tank transfer( 4 ,each for a 3 day stay) and an additional 2 week period of observation in a larger cycled qt tank for the other diseases with treatment as necessary.
I have no idea what which lfs or on line supplier does or does not do and treat all new specimens as if they have not been effectively cleansed. I'm mindful of potential med sensitivities too.
Steve What exactly is a tiered quarantine? I'm curious.
No sounds like a reasonably sound practice.
There are different ways to approach it but qt with observation is a big plus.
Preventative treatment is arguable particularly with copper and formalin and potential sensitivity issues for some fish. Althouygh I used to give all new fish a formalin bath pre qt without observable ill effect.
Hypo is often unreliable for ich,ime, and won't do anything for velvet,brokklynella or flukes.
Ammonia control is often an issue in qt and using detoxifiers with copper meds is lethal.
For me the easiest and safest for ich prevention and treatment is qt with tank transfer( 4 ,each for a 3 day stay) and an additional 2 week period of observation in a larger cycled qt tank for the other diseases with treatment as necessary.
I have no idea what which lfs or on line supplier does or does not do and treat all new specimens as if they have not been effectively cleansed. I'm mindful of potential med sensitivities too.
Steve What exactly is a tiered quarantine? I'm curious.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
that's ironic, isn't? I like Pet World/Aqua Shoppe, too. This is the store that originally got me into reefkeeping. It was those blue Damselfish! They have a back room QT area where ALL incoming fishes are held, yet I still have the same reservations as you regarding purchasing a fish from them.
I'm not going to post QT details of the other stores. Why should I? Go ask them what they do. It would be crazy for a LFS to dump new fishes into holding tanks that aren't being maintained under specific conditions and that's as far as I'm going to go.
I don't know of a single retail source for reef animals that hasn't sold a less than perfectly healthy fish or coral. It's inevitible. When it comes to purchasing reef animals, caveat emptor. Buyer beware!
iamwrasseman
New member
if you think live aquaria DD QT every one of their fish why do they use different wholesalers to get your fish if thier stock is low . when they do this there is absolutly no time for any QT at all . in california there are many wholesalers and they all trade stock when one is low and has to fill an order today .
the best way to help a fish have a good life in our enclosed glass "cage" is to get them eating and strong as there are many diseases on the fish when they come in stressed so you have to get them eating and strong by foods they will eat i use PE mysis and numar ova which is fish crack . try it you may like it .
the best way to help a fish have a good life in our enclosed glass "cage" is to get them eating and strong as there are many diseases on the fish when they come in stressed so you have to get them eating and strong by foods they will eat i use PE mysis and numar ova which is fish crack . try it you may like it .
johno4
New member
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
thanks
thanks
thanks
FWIW I think you did as much as anybody could reasonably do to QT your fishes. I've purchased "bad" fish from every LFS at one point or another. With all of the fishes I have in my aquarium (Achilles, Powder Blue, Emperor Angel, Copperband and Klein's Butterflyfish etc.) the possible introduction of any pathogens ALWAYS concerns me. Believe me, I've been through it. Watching fishes get sick and die is no fun.
iamwrasseman
New member
wrasses do not tolerate copper very well ,some can't deal with it at all .
jeremyjoslin
New member
I have no clue. I've never order from them... just recently learned about them. They seem unique in this regard. Seems the website indicates fish are WYSIWYG when buying- the fish you see is the ONE you get after their QT & Treat procedure. For someone who's had trouble with a well-appearing fish becoming diseased when stressed, the idea of purchasing a pre-treated fish is very enticing to me.
Most LFS's I've bought from get fish shipped in, add them to their selling tanks which may have a touch of copper, and sell them the next day. I'm not saying it's wrong at all (caveat emptor), just that no one I know of is holding fish for weeks and treating them empirically for the most common diseases. I just think that's a fantastic idea.
I agree with you that this is a good thing... but there's no way to know if that fish is just hiding the disease (lying dormant) or if their immune system totally eradicated it, is there? To me that's a big risk... and probably the reason why a strong and healthy-looking specimen could end up ruining the entire tank days/weeks/months later.
Please understand I'm just trying to make sense of all this and figure out why my own QT process will be without buying a pharmacy and having 12 different tanks cycled and on separate water circuits.
Not trying to sound argumentative...
iamwrasseman
New member
oh no im not taking it that way just trying to explain what i have seen throughout the years as it is just impossible to really properly QT a fish at a LFS without giving the customer sticker shock .
is copper treatment with many other fish in the same tank and having UV steralizer QT ?many fish can't tolorate copper ,some can't tolorate the simple stress from a QT tank .
what should they be treated for ?
inverts can carry fish disease's that you can't use copper on so what does one do there ?
its so difficult to diagnose fish that don't show signs of disease so do you treat all fish and for what ?
its like trying to erradiate all disease in humans ,and we can tell when were sick ,go to the doctors and get specific remedies but yet there is disease everywhere ,why would that be ?
again a well fed, unstressed fish has the capabilities to fend off many diseases just like humans can if we get our rest take our vitamins and eat well ,but we will still get sick from time to time so there really is no way to 100% be sure your 100% disease free.
there are to many angles to look at this from and you have to realize that you can do your best and hope that all will be good plain and simple .
is copper treatment with many other fish in the same tank and having UV steralizer QT ?many fish can't tolorate copper ,some can't tolorate the simple stress from a QT tank .
what should they be treated for ?
inverts can carry fish disease's that you can't use copper on so what does one do there ?
its so difficult to diagnose fish that don't show signs of disease so do you treat all fish and for what ?
its like trying to erradiate all disease in humans ,and we can tell when were sick ,go to the doctors and get specific remedies but yet there is disease everywhere ,why would that be ?
again a well fed, unstressed fish has the capabilities to fend off many diseases just like humans can if we get our rest take our vitamins and eat well ,but we will still get sick from time to time so there really is no way to 100% be sure your 100% disease free.
there are to many angles to look at this from and you have to realize that you can do your best and hope that all will be good plain and simple .
I think nutrition is important but it wont stop ich ,brokklnella, vleve t or flukes. These parsites will attack helathy fish and kill them.
Not to beat a dead horse but I am really happy with tank transfer .
I've tried the other methods(copper and hypo) and avoided this one thinking it too difficult or stressful. It's neither.It may not be everyone's choice and perhaps there are better methods but I like it.
2 small tanks are used( 10 or 20 gallon for larger fish) .Filled with new salt water aerated overnight at an sg a point or two lower than the bag water and temp adjusted. The tanks are simple and bare with an airstone ,small hob filter , a heater and some pvc for resting /hiding spots.No ammonia builds up in the 72 hour stay with light to moderate feeding ,ime but since the water is med free I can and do add an ammonia detoxifier ,ie Ammo lock by api; just in case.Other detoxifiers are fine are fine too. For wrasses and others that need sand to bury in a disposable bowl of sand is provided.
After 72 hours the tank is taken down and drained. Fish are gently captured which is easy in two to 3 inches of water in a bare tank and moved to a new tank with new water which matches the tank they left.. The drained tank and equipment are thoroughly dried to kill any ich including cysts and set up for the 3rd stay.
No meds; no ammonia worries, although I do monitor it; it's relatively quick 12 days,and; most importantly, no ich.
After the 4 transfers , I have introduced fish into the main system relying on my observation skills during the 4 72 hour periods for any other illnesses. This has been fine for the last 8 or so specimens I've qt'd and treated this way.
Recently,however, I decided to improve the routine by adding a cylced 30 gallon tank and placing the fish there for an additional 2 weeks for further observation and preventative prazi pro treatment. The prazi is mostly for flukes which can be hard to detect in the early weeks . It may also help any internal parasites as well and as far as I know there are no sensitivity issue. The extra qt time should be adequate for anything else to emerge and provides a nce environment for non competitive feeding.
I just moved three new tiera, ie resplendent anthias in there after tank transfer in 10 gallon tanks.
Not to beat a dead horse but I am really happy with tank transfer .
I've tried the other methods(copper and hypo) and avoided this one thinking it too difficult or stressful. It's neither.It may not be everyone's choice and perhaps there are better methods but I like it.
2 small tanks are used( 10 or 20 gallon for larger fish) .Filled with new salt water aerated overnight at an sg a point or two lower than the bag water and temp adjusted. The tanks are simple and bare with an airstone ,small hob filter , a heater and some pvc for resting /hiding spots.No ammonia builds up in the 72 hour stay with light to moderate feeding ,ime but since the water is med free I can and do add an ammonia detoxifier ,ie Ammo lock by api; just in case.Other detoxifiers are fine are fine too. For wrasses and others that need sand to bury in a disposable bowl of sand is provided.
After 72 hours the tank is taken down and drained. Fish are gently captured which is easy in two to 3 inches of water in a bare tank and moved to a new tank with new water which matches the tank they left.. The drained tank and equipment are thoroughly dried to kill any ich including cysts and set up for the 3rd stay.
No meds; no ammonia worries, although I do monitor it; it's relatively quick 12 days,and; most importantly, no ich.
After the 4 transfers , I have introduced fish into the main system relying on my observation skills during the 4 72 hour periods for any other illnesses. This has been fine for the last 8 or so specimens I've qt'd and treated this way.
Recently,however, I decided to improve the routine by adding a cylced 30 gallon tank and placing the fish there for an additional 2 weeks for further observation and preventative prazi pro treatment. The prazi is mostly for flukes which can be hard to detect in the early weeks . It may also help any internal parasites as well and as far as I know there are no sensitivity issue. The extra qt time should be adequate for anything else to emerge and provides a nce environment for non competitive feeding.
I just moved three new tiera, ie resplendent anthias in there after tank transfer in 10 gallon tanks.
iamwrasseman
New member
sounds like a nice deal Tom , can you imagine if a LFS did that for every new fish ? they would have to have a zillion tanks .
Hi Dave,
I have not given much thought to how a retailer or wholesaler might preventively treat newly shipped fish. For my purposes I assume it's not done or not done effectively. The cost would be high ;it would take considerable effort and time to manage a transient inventory of 50 or so fish or more. The variability in care once they leave the retailer or wholesaler would render any guarantees to cover costs reductive .
I'd think about some sort of multi tank receiving operation perhaps with single pass large uv water treatments between tanks as a starting point. Of course,there would need to be more than one group of tanks due to specimen compatability issues. Generally , I think ifr we surveyed the trade , the most we'd see ,however, is a bath in freshwater or a bath in formalin or another aldehyde before placement in a selling tank.I'm not real happy about universal copper treatments if they occur.
Even with a good at home qt protocol ,it's still a very good idea to observe the fish and tankmates at the lfs and select those that appear healthy and have been there for a week or two.
I have not given much thought to how a retailer or wholesaler might preventively treat newly shipped fish. For my purposes I assume it's not done or not done effectively. The cost would be high ;it would take considerable effort and time to manage a transient inventory of 50 or so fish or more. The variability in care once they leave the retailer or wholesaler would render any guarantees to cover costs reductive .
I'd think about some sort of multi tank receiving operation perhaps with single pass large uv water treatments between tanks as a starting point. Of course,there would need to be more than one group of tanks due to specimen compatability issues. Generally , I think ifr we surveyed the trade , the most we'd see ,however, is a bath in freshwater or a bath in formalin or another aldehyde before placement in a selling tank.I'm not real happy about universal copper treatments if they occur.
Even with a good at home qt protocol ,it's still a very good idea to observe the fish and tankmates at the lfs and select those that appear healthy and have been there for a week or two.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
I'm sure this is obvious to people in this thread, but IMHO it's important to draw a clear distinction between Liveaquaria (who act like a clearinghouse, drop-shipping fish straight from the middleman like many other online vendors) and Liveaquaria Diver's Den (who buy fish, hold them for observation, treat them preventively, photograph each individual fish, then offer it for sale in a WYSIWYG format). Their facilities are in different states. Other than sharing the same parent company, and weird rules on combined order shipping charges, they might as well be different businesses. DD livestock is almost always significantly more expensive than the same species from Liveaquaria, as you'd expect given the differences in how the livestock is handled.
iamwrasseman
New member
yes you are correct and i may have mis quoted their differences . dd is a major step above but la is a clearing house from what i have heard .
jeremyjoslin
New member
I haven't really started stocking my system and I'm still "shopping" for a best practices way to QT. This DOES sound stressful and time consuming, but you may be on your way to convincing me it's the best.
Why not add Prazi to the last tank instead of a new 5th stage?
Would it make sense to use an inline (main system) tank for a 5th stage of protected feeding and add Prazi to the 4th stage?
Are there any other parasites/infections not treated by this method? Seems like a good method to remove parasites with a finite life cycle that you can interrupt, but are there bacterial infections or other common ailments not interrupted (besides the flukes you mention)?
iamwrasseman
New member
there are so many different diseases or infestations along with infections that it is extremly difficult to be sure that every fish is "clean" and free of carrying any thing that could harm your tankmates .
windyridge
Fish Mother
Fish crack, I like it! :rollface:
I am curious about the tiered quarantine too.
I am curious about the tiered quarantine too.
I haven't really started stocking my system and I'm still "shopping" for a best practices way to QT. This DOES sound stressful and time consuming, but you may be on your way to convincing me it's the best.
BTW I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything beyond doing an effective quarantine at home while minizing stress to the fish and the aquarist and minimizing chances for ammonia toxicity or a bad med interaction .
I'm constantly looking to improve the way to do qt and to make it more common place.
This is a current post of mine on the fish disease forum which I beleive answers your questions and provides a little extra information:
I use tank transfer for all new specimens to insure against cryptocaryon irritans.
The initial receiving tank is temp and sg adjusted to the bag water( sg a few points couple of points lower than the bagwater is ok but not higher) This obviates the need for drip acclimation and prolonged stays in bag water where ph can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened.It is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.
During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers) I observe for other maladies. Since there are no meds to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , I can use an ammonia detoxifier during the 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity,even though total copper measures the same.
If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, vlevet or flukes , I'll do a formalin bath before starting treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brokklynella or prazi pro for flukes.
Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed ) ,I use a larger cycled qt tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.
Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for ich,the most common killer
Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.
BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.
This is a post from the fellow who runs that forum:
The writeup above by tmz (Tom) is what I would suggest as the best possible quarantine protocol.
See: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134160
Psots #s 17 and 18.
BTW I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything beyond doing an effective quarantine at home while minizing stress to the fish and the aquarist and minimizing chances for ammonia toxicity or a bad med interaction .
I'm constantly looking to improve the way to do qt and to make it more common place.
This is a current post of mine on the fish disease forum which I beleive answers your questions and provides a little extra information:
I use tank transfer for all new specimens to insure against cryptocaryon irritans.
The initial receiving tank is temp and sg adjusted to the bag water( sg a few points couple of points lower than the bagwater is ok but not higher) This obviates the need for drip acclimation and prolonged stays in bag water where ph can rise and ammonia toxicity can increase once the bag is opened.It is particularly important after prolonged stays in the bag.
During the 12 day tank transfer process ( 3 day stays 4 transfers) I observe for other maladies. Since there are no meds to interact with in the transfer tanks which contain freshly mixed salt water aged and aerated overnight , I can use an ammonia detoxifier during the 3 day period. Bound copper products for example can't be safely used with ammonia detoxifiers as more toxic free copper occurs with lethal copper toxicity,even though total copper measures the same.
If there is reason to suspect infestation with brooklynellosis, vlevet or flukes , I'll do a formalin bath before starting treatment with copper for velvet, formalin for brokklynella or prazi pro for flukes.
Since not all maladies will present symptoms in the 12 days( flukes can easily be missed ) ,I use a larger cycled qt tank for an additional 2 to 4 weeks of observation depending on the condition of the fish with treatment as necessary.
Most fish receive no medications yet all are effectively prophylactically treated for ich,the most common killer
Ammonia is monitored and has never been an issue during the 3 day stay but a detoxifier is added just in case, The cycled tank takes care of itself.
BTW there is no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.
This is a post from the fellow who runs that forum:
The writeup above by tmz (Tom) is what I would suggest as the best possible quarantine protocol.
See: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134160
Psots #s 17 and 18.
