new fish deaths

[johno4]

Just venting here. I purchased a kole tang and an pinkface wrasse a couple weeks ago from one of our LFS. Which is not important, because they all follow the same practices and are decent stores. The fish went into a qt tank for observation. I treated the tank with a dose of Prazipro and all was good. A week passes and all seems fine, it took the tang a few days to eat but began eating NLS pellets. Out of no where the tang started going down hill on Sunday night, pale color and rapid breathing. On Monday morning he looked the same however I notices some white spots on him. I began to drop the tank down to hypo salinity, by the end of the day the wrasse was showing similar signs. The salinity was at 1.008 by mid monday. The tang died that night and the wrasse died tuesday. Im out $120 and the poor fish are dead.:mad2:

It just seems to me that the stores should be responsible for treating fish for disease before selling sick fish to the costomer. The mark up on them is pretty large and I think they should be taking on the responsiblility. Any other type of pet store selling other pets (dog, cats, etc.) would be shut down if they were selling diseased pets. Why is this practice acceptable in our hobby?

 

[Conesus_Kid]

This is a tough one. I feel your pain and understand your frustration. I haven't lost fish to ich, but have had to tear down the whole display to leave it fallow of fish for 8 weeks and it wasn't fun. I haven't purchased new fish in some time, but any new additions get two weeks of copper and Prazipro in QT before I even think about adding them to the display.

I always thought that it would make sense for the LFS to just run copper in their tanks all the time, but that would most likely cause them more problems in the end. Imagine some unsuspecting customer adds that copper-laden water to their display tank and kills off their corals and invertebrates.

All that said, did you contact the LFS where you purchased the fish? They might just help you out.

Good luck.

 

[spinoleo]

Did you see anything on them when you bought them? I don't know how an lfs could treat for all diseases. Fish can get

 

[johno4]

I did not see any signs of disease or I would would have started treatment sooner. At this point I am wondering if this was velvet instead of ich just due to the fact that the fish died so quickly.

Scott, I did not contact them. Im sure they would offer some small percentage off of something else but Im just not interested at this point. I am not blaming them, I just wish they all would make an attempt to qt new fish.

Spinoleo, yea im not sure how they would treat all thier new fish. I guess they would have to set up and run a large and seperate system for this. It would cost them a bit up front but I bet the costomers in the area would love it, even if the prices went up slightly. Well, at least I would.

I guess I am frustrated due to the fact that I did what you are supposed to do, qt, observe and then treat. I was debating a preamptive external treatment, and decided against it due to the tang not eating a ton. I wanted him to bult up his appetite a bit more, I guess that decision bit me in the Butt!

 

[tmz]

Personally, I view all new specimens as very high risk for crytocaryon irritans and are moderate risk for velvet and flukes, perhaps brooklynellosis too.

I treat them all prophylacticly with tank transfer for ich and use a larger cycled qt tank for additional observation/treatment if indicated for other maladies. Tank transfer may also disrupt the velvet life cylce to a degree too ,but oodinium is on a different clock and the spores behave differently than the ich cysts do.

Amyloodinium(velvet) is a quick killer,it has a fast life cycle and hordes of parasites sometimes called" swarmers" launch vicious massive attacks and quickly harm and clog the gills. Often intervention fails even if quick and strong . A fresh water dip or fromalin bath can give some immediate relief followed by a copper or formalin treatment.

Sorry for your loses.

 

[block head]

sucks. fish are a crap shoot. LFS pretty much lose money on fish as is. i assume the worst, and treat them all like 2 dollar streetwalkers. qt did it 's job . could have been much worse with dump and pray.

 

[johno4]

In the past I had always use prazipro and hyposalinity no matter if there were any signs of disease or not. This time I was thinking why stress the fish if its not needed. I guess I learned the hard way, treat the fish no matter if the signs are there or not. Hopefully someone else reading this will do this from now on.

I almost put the kole into the display when it didnt eat right away. Bob Fenner actually recomends not qt that species. Im glad I did. My currant fish have been healthy and happy for almost 3 years now. That would have been a disaster.

 

[iamwrasseman]

believe me i am on your side and im sorry that you have lost some prized fish but realisticly how should a LFS qt and treat 264 fish and inverts that they recieved this week along with 50 corals ? how long should they treat each one and for what should they treat them for when they look fine to the eye . where should they put these fish ,inverts and corals while they treat them for how many weeks ? how should they pay for the water, lights, medications,equiptment, etc when they are not for sale for these weeks ? how will they pay for the care and treatment done to the fish and the food along with the extra employee's for these weeks ?
i dont know where your fish originated from but probably two totaly different places many hundreds or thousands of miles apart from one another . also they may have been warehoused in two totaly different warehouses as many ,many are at the warehousing level . why did they both survive until they both got to your doorstep ? i think that most responsible LFS keepers try their best and do what they can but if you want to purchase a $125.00 damsel then it could be treated for every imaginable disease,parasite ,fungal and bacterial infestation for you .
and in the end they will sell you a fish that they have invested $8 in for $20 and that doesnt include the hundreds of dollars on top of that for shipping costs.
sorry to say it this way ,its the truth and believe me i am on your side ,i am just realistic too ,

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

the risk is inherent

the risk is inherent

any and everything we place in our aquariums is a potential host for something undesirable. It's not fair to say LFS's are selling diseased pets. I don't think there's any retailers that aren't running some kind of treatment in their fish holding tanks. It would be poor business practice to knowingly sell sick fishes (or anything else for that matter.)

 

[GMaquarium]

I wish I could comment on this topic with details. Too bad I am not allowed.

 

[johno4]

I guess looking back at my original post it is comming across a little harsh towards the lfs in the area. I was more or less venting, I in no way was trying to suggest that any of the lfs would purposely sell diseased fish. We have some great stores in the area and would do not want to try and make it seem like any of them would do this.

 

[iamwrasseman]

its all good i just see what they do and it is a tough job . they just dont bring fish in and dump them into tanks and wait for a sale . i know thats not what you think either

 

[NirvanaFan]

any and everything we place in our aquariums is a potential host for something undesirable. It's not fair to say LFS's are selling diseased pets. I don't think there's any retailers that aren't running some kind of treatment in their fish holding tanks. It would be poor business practice to knowingly sell sick fishes (or anything else for that matter.)

I saw a bunch of clownfish with something while at LFS in the past week. They obviously had something, but I'm not 100% sure what it was. I would guess velvet, but I'm not good at IDing diseases. They were selling them in a display tank with a bunch of other fish.

On a related note, they were also selling clownfish that should have been culled. There were a couple that had obvious overbites and a few others that looked like they had snub noses. I'm pretty sure they were black ocellaris, but they were labeled black percula. This really bothers me because I cull meticulously, just as any breeder should.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

I just discovered Diver's Den @LiveAquaria... huge QT process for each fish. It surely would be nice for LFS's to move in this direction for a *select* number of fishes.

I've lost a whole tank in a matter of days due to adding either a diseased fish, or a non-diseased fish that stressed a previously added diseased (but dormant) fish.

 

[tmz]

I have recieved diseased fish from live aquaria on occasion. They are solid on their guarantee though. To keep a tank disease free, quarantine by the aquarist is a necessary chore ,imo.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I just discovered Diver's Den @LiveAquaria... huge QT process for each fish. It surely would be nice for LFS's to move in this direction for a *select* number of fishes.

I believe all of our LFS's have a QT process for select fishes...if not all of them.

 

[jeremyjoslin]

I meant to say QT and treat a la Diver's Den. If LFS's are doing this they're being secretive about it. I've asked and haven't heard of anyone doing it quite like them.

From the DD website:

Fish, such as clownfish, prone to common parasitic ailments like Brooklynella hostilis, are given repeated freshwater baths that contain anti-parasite medication. Clownfish are quarantined for a minimum of four weeks at our facility before we offer them for sale. Other fish such as Angelfish, tangs, certain genus of wrasse, and several other specific species are given therapeutic saltwater baths. These baths contain praziquantel or other medications that eliminate flukes, protozoan, and parasites commonly found on wild fish.

To combat common bacterial infections such as Vibrio, therapeutic baths containing antibiotics such as kanamycin, nitrofurazone, Neomycin and other commercial antibiotics are given. Open wounds on fish are treated and healed with a special topical treatment. In addition to the baths, all quarantined fish are treated with copper sulfate and a 37% formaldehyde solution to combat Amyloodinium ocellatum and Cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

you know... I've had several personal contacts with some of the folks that run DD. I'm not going to slight anybody: they're good at QT.
The "big 4 or 5" Rochester LFS's that cater to reef aquarists are comparable with their QT procedures. This isn't the case everywhere across the country.
And just because a retailer QT's their animals doesn't guarantee a critter will be free of something undesirable.
Heck, as you well know.... even if the aquarist himself QT's something... it's no guarantee.

 

[Steve Canyon]

I know abc aquarium does a tiered quarantine. Others could if they chose to

 

[johno4]

Gary Majchrzak...The "big 4 or 5" Rochester LFS's that cater to reef aquarists are comparable with their QT procedures.

Gary, what are these procedures you speak of? I am unaware of any qt in the lfs. If they are qt'ing their fish can you please elaborate on what is being done. All I know is, the fish are shipped on the day they are closed, opened the next day with new fish in thier displays. Whats happening in that one day besides accliamation? The only place I know that has a qt process is pet world, and honestly, I am scared to purchase salt water fish from them. And for the record I like that store a lot so please dont take that as if I am basing them. I think they do a great job with thier fresh water stuff.

I am not asking to argue, I really want to know what is happening.

And while Im asking questions, does anyone think my qt I performed is flawed? Was I "unlucky"? What should I do differently? I havent lost a fish in years so I am really baffled.