New Nitrate theory

[Aquarist007]

boy nothing like an excellent on line class in microbiology--great posts Matt or Dr. Matt.

Can one assume then that the anerobic bacteria that live in the anoxic areas of the dsb and live rock perform both reduction reactions of nitrites to nitrates and then nitrates to nitrogen?
Or are there two strains of anerobic bacteria that perform these two functions?

 

[Aquarist007]

boy nothing like an excellent on line class in microbiology--great posts Matt or Dr. Matt.

Can one assume then that the anerobic bacteria that live in the anoxic areas of the dsb and live rock perform both reduction reactions of nitrites to nitrates and then nitrates to nitrogen?
Or are there two strains of anerobic bacteria that perform these two functions?

 

[Aquarist007]

boy nothing like an excellent on line class in microbiology--great posts Matt or Dr. Matt.

Can one assume then that the anerobic bacteria that live in the anoxic areas of the dsb and live rock perform both reduction reactions of nitrites to nitrates and then nitrates to nitrogen?
Or are there two strains of anerobic bacteria that perform these two functions?

 

[Aquarist007]

boy nothing like an excellent on line class in microbiology--great posts Matt or Dr. Matt.

Can one assume then that the anerobic bacteria that live in the anoxic areas of the dsb and live rock perform both reduction reactions of nitrites to nitrates and then nitrates to nitrogen?
Or are there two strains of anerobic bacteria that perform these two functions?

 

[tmz]

Matt .

Thankyou.

I understand the carbon limitation for heteroptrophic bacteria and the likely absence of an organic carbon source in an anoxic area. Does this suggest that a deep bed with channeling organisms would be better suited to denitrification since organics would be more available?BTW Wouldn't carbon limitation make the remote unlit super deep 8 plus inches (bucket sandbed) with clean water rather useless as a denitrifying device?

You noted an inorganic carbon source , alkalinity (bi carbonate I presume ) is used by autotrophic bacteria . Do they use CO2 as well?

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951732#post14951732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Matt .

Thankyou.

I understand the carbon limitation for heteroptrophic bacteria and the likely absence of an organic carbon source in an anoxic area. Does this suggest that a deep bed with channeling organisms would be better suited to denitrification since organics would be more available?BTW Wouldn't carbon limitation make the remote unlit super deep 8 plus inches (bucket sandbed) with clean water rather useless as a denitrifying device?

You noted an inorganic carbon source , alkalinity (bi carbonate I presume ) is used by autotrophic bacteria . Do they use CO2 as well?

this is very close to what I was asking Tom but you stated it more scientifically.
I still don't have a handle on the anerobic bacteria that operate in an anoxic area===do the peform both denitrating functions(nitrites to nitrates and nitrates to nitrogen)

 

[JoelNB]

capn, I believe from the readings that the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are aerobic autotrophs and the denitrifying bacteria are anaerobic and likely heterotrophs.

 

[MattL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951732#post14951732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Matt .

Thankyou.

I understand the carbon limitation for heteroptrophic bacteria and the likely absence of an organic carbon source in an anoxic area. Does this suggest that a deep bed with channeling organisms would be better suited to denitrification since organics would be more available?

Well, carbon doesn't need to be limited in an anoxic zone in a reef tank... You can have anoxic conditions and organic carbon.

However, if it is limited, then denitrification would be inhibited.

So the real question is: is organic carbon limiting in deep sand beds. I don't know. I or someone would have to do a study.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951732#post14951732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
BTW Wouldn't carbon limitation make the remote unlit super deep 8 plus inches (bucket sandbed) with clean water rather useless as a denitrifying device?

Again, I can't speak to whether carbon is limiting on the bottom of the bucket, but I suspect it might be, or that it might become that way over time.

Someone would have to do a study. It is not difficult to test for organic carbon, biodegradable organic carbon, and denitrifiers.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951732#post14951732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
You noted an inorganic carbon source , alkalinity (bi carbonate I presume ) is used by autotrophic bacteria . Do they use CO2 as well?

Yes, the two are in essence one in the same, as the carbon dioxide must be dissolved in water before it can be used by the cell.

CO2 + H2O ---> H2CO3 <==> HCO3- <==> CO3--

However, because of the pH range of our reef tanks, most of the alkalinity is as bicarbonate. This graph is for fresh water:

As for the Calvin Cycle, which is used by autotrophs to assimilate inorganic carbon into organic carbon, I don't know which species the alkalinity is in, only that because it occurs in water, it must be as some form of alkalinity.

My guess is whatever the pH and the ionic strength inside the cell dictates what form the alkalinity is in.

Matt

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951942#post14951942 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JoelNB
capn, I believe from the readings that the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are aerobic autotrophs and the denitrifying bacteria are anaerobic and likely heterotrophs.

now I am understanding it --thanks.

 

[tmz]

Thank you Matt.

 

[MattL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951636#post14951636 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
boy nothing like an excellent on line class in microbiology--great posts Matt or Dr. Matt.

Can one assume then that the anerobic bacteria that live in the anoxic areas of the dsb and live rock perform both reduction reactions of nitrites to nitrates and then nitrates to nitrogen?
Or are there two strains of anerobic bacteria that perform these two functions?

Just to clarify:

The bacteria that oxidize ammonia (NH3) to nitrite (NO2) are aerobic and live in the oxic region of our tank.
The (separate) bacteria that oxidize nitrite (NO2) to nitrate (NO3) are aerobic and live in the oxic region of our tank..
The bacteria that reduce nitrate (NO3) to nitrogen gas (N2) are anaerobic and live in the anoxic region of our tank.

Here is where things get tricky. While there is only one pathway for ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, there are many pathways for nitrate back to nitrogen gas or ammonia, depending on a variety of factors that I don't believe are yet fully understood. I drew this picture for you:

Matt

 

[Aquarist007]

Thanks for your excellent explanations Matt---I understand this more clearly now.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14952593#post14952593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Thanks for your excellent explanations Matt---I understand this more clearly now.

Paul must be away otherwise I am sure he would be thrilled to have a discussion with someone on such high level.

 

[Paul B]

Oh yes, I remember all of that

Capn, remember when you were in College?
I spent that time sleeping under a sandbag in a rice paddy.
I guess I could have brought a chemistry book with me to study the nitrogen cycle. I am not sure if they made waterproof chemistry books then and we called encyclopedia's wireless computers.
:lol:

If you want to know how to cure ich in a day or Pop Eye in a minute or get your fish to spawn or remove a tumor or get them to appear on American Idol then I am your guy.

If it is something technical you will need Matt, Randy or Whats his name? Oh yeah WK.
Those guys spent all that time taking tests so now they have to put some of that schooling to the test

I actually do understand that diagram, I must have made a mistake and read about it :dance: :bounce3: :dance: :bounce1: :bounce2:

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14963616#post14963616 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Oh yes, I remember all of that

Capn, remember when you were in College?
I spent that time sleeping under a sandbag in a rice paddy.
I guess I could have brought a chemistry book with me to study the nitrogen cycle. I am not sure if they made waterproof chemistry books then and we called encyclopedia's wireless computers.
:lol:

Paul--that does not hold water with me as you have admitted time and time in the past that you have been and still are a voracious reader in this hobby as well as being the most experienced and knowledgeable guy I know in this hobby.

And what you and I have in common is while you were blowing up things in Nam I was in college but blowing up car engines and learning by trial and error.:eek2:
I passed on the invitation to take my Phd because I thought the stuff was crap and chose to go into teaching because of my love of learning and animals by getting your hands dirty.

But IMO with my lack of experience but somewhat high level of reading comprehension and retention I thought the theory that Matt presented at my request really helped explain some of the discussions on this thread.

I've been reading Calfo and Schminek's works on dsbs also. I am becoming for and more confinced that dsb's fail to to lack of maintaining layers of helpful bethnic creatures.
These are the keys for getting nitrates ect ect to the lower levels of the sand beds(the anoxic areas) where anerobic denitrfiers are
If the sand bed is too deep or the layers disturbed or made up of the wrong compositions then the transport of materials from one bethnic creature to the other is broken and the sand bed fails

Just my measly bag of concepts starting to come together.

But know amount of theory, books , college education will ever replace what I have learned from your experience on here. You are RC's shock and awe:smokin: :smokin:

BTW
My daughter just received here lieutenant stripes and starts her posting in Kingston.

 

[papajojo]

am i reading this right

am i reading this right

short term deep sand beds will act as sponges. Eventually because of one thing or another or lack there of they will reach their max. Then slowly but surely they will leach. left undisturbed lots of nasties get worse and worse till they reach catastrophic levels. so long term: 2-4 inch with varying sized media would facilitate transfer. should shallow sand beds be left undisturbed or should they be stirred or vaccumed often?

 

[Paul B]

Capn, I am very proud of your daughter and I don't even know her. That is the most important and honorable thing a person could do for their country and for themselves. Thank her for me.

I was in college but blowing up car engines and learning by trial and error.

I also blew up plenty of engines before, during and after the war. I even blew up a helocopter engine, unfortunately, I was flying in it at the time.
I was a mechanic for GM which is probably the reason they posted a 7 billion loss this quarter No one has ever touched my car or boat and no one ever will.

As for benthic creatures in a DSB, they will undoubtable stop multiplying, stop channeling water, and stop appearing on American Idol in a few years.
Unless organisms are added from the sea, these things will slowly stop working, but what do I know?
I diden't take "Benthic Organisms 101" But then the phds that did, do not have old reef tanks.
Yes I know Schmeck has a phd and he started in the hobby the same time as I did but He does not have an old tank either.
I guess they did not let you have a tank in college. :lol:

I have to go to Brooklyn now, lucky me
Have a great day

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14967518#post14967518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Capn, I am very proud of your daughter and I don't even know her. That is the most important and honorable thing a person could do for their country and for themselves. Thank her for me.



I also blew up plenty of engines before, during and after the war. I even blew up a helocopter engine, unfortunately, I was flying in it at the time.
I was a mechanic for GM which is probably the reason they posted a 7 billion loss this quarter No one has ever touched my car or boat and no one ever will.

As for benthic creatures in a DSB, they will undoubtable stop multiplying, stop channeling water, and stop appearing on American Idol in a few years.
Unless organisms are added from the sea, these things will slowly stop working, but what do I know?
I diden't take "Benthic Organisms 101" But then the phds that did, do not have old reef tanks.
Yes I know Schmeck has a phd and he started in the hobby the same time as I did but He does not have an old tank either.
I guess they did not let you have a tank in college. :lol:

I have to go to Brooklyn now, lucky me
Have a great day

thank you Paul--we are very proud of our daughter too.

Paul---with all your expertise did you ever blow up a deep sand bed I'll bet you tried to blow up the Water Keeper:lol:

 

[wayne in norway]

Anecdotally, and as a sand bed user my nitrates did not go to zero until I started dosing carbon. Then, after some weeks they dropped to zero and stayed there. Recently I have been trying to shift cyano and have backed off dosing C and have really gone to work with P remover, and my nitrates have gone back up to trace levels. I don't know if it's the lack of carbon or the lack of cynaobacteria to absorb nitrates that's causing this but I'm sure it'll be gone in a few days.

Cap'n, why so sure that benthic creatures have much to do with it rather than advective water flow? Huettel demonstrated what advection will do (messing around with flakes of acrylic to see how deep, quickly they buried in a sand bed), and that looks a lot more like what's going on in my sump. The worms are there, but as a method of getting nitrates down deep, I don't buy it. They might well churn up the sand and stop it forming hardgrounds tho'.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14967594#post14967594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wayne in norway
Anecdotally, and as a sand bed user my nitrates did not go to zero until I started dosing carbon. Then, after some weeks they dropped to zero and stayed there. Recently I have been trying to shift cyano and have backed off dosing C and have really gone to work with P remover, and my nitrates have gone back up to trace levels. I don't know if it's the lack of carbon or the lack of cynaobacteria to absorb nitrates that's causing this but I'm sure it'll be gone in a few days.

Cap'n, why so sure that benthic creatures have much to do with it rather than advective water flow? Huettel demonstrated what advection will do (messing around with flakes of acrylic to see how deep, quickly they buried in a sand bed), and that looks a lot more like what's going on in my sump. The worms are there, but as a method of getting nitrates down deep, I don't buy it. They might well churn up the sand and stop it forming hardgrounds tho'.

Hi from Norway Wayne and thanks for posting
I know little about advective water flow theory--perhaps you could post a laymans interpretation

What I posted was in reference to this article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
by Ron Shimek

"The key to the success of such a sand bed community is water movement between the sediment grains. I mentioned above that it is essentially impossible for waves or water currents to move water in sediments. However, there is an exceptionally useful method of generating slow and even water movement through sediments. This water movement is caused by the motion of the animals in the upper inch or so of sand, particularly in those vertically-oriented tube worms such as Phyllochaetopterus, but also by all other animals moving in the upper sediment layers. The amount of water moved by one worm is quite small, on the order of a few fractions of a milliliter per day to a couple of milliliters per hour, but the cumulative total of all the water moved by all the animals in the sand bed is quite considerable. It is enough to push water into and through the sediments. "