NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[PowermanKW]

From beans website:
A standpipe can only run silently under two conditions. 1) ....... 2) The volume of the flow is high enough to keep the pipe entrance submerged, creating a full siphon.

The Bean is a glorified herbie - it runs on the same principles. The open channel only siphons during an 'emergency'.

The main drain is a siphon no matter how you want to mince words.

Yes, in a Bean it is, because there is a lifting component. The long drain leg is sucking (for lack of better word) water out of the overflow. lifting it 2 inches in the elbow driven by the weight of water in the long leg.

The Herbie is not a siphon it is a drain. And mincing words has nothing to do with it. A valve at the bottom of a tank is a drain. A bathtub has a drain. The oil plug on the bottom of you oil pan is a drain. For what you are saying there is no such thing as a drain any where. A drain is simply the draining of fluid out the bottom of a vessel using difference in hight to drive it. A siphon is a lifting of water in a short leg driven by the weight of water in the long leg. Both legs become equal and the siphon stops. A drain does not stop until all the water is gone.

 

[teesquare]

PoermanKW
That concurs with my experience with my Herbie based system too...
And - the Bean system will provide a higher turnover rate thru the overflow
T

 

[jthomps123]

The difference is in the drain and the siphon. Water hight above Herbies drain willl sort of regulate differences in flow. The siphon in Beans design will just flow what is there in the overflow. The open channel in Beans deign is there for a regulation mechanisim. As long as there is not enough water to come off the ipe wall and splash, it will remain silent. The Bean will remain parked exactly at the level of the open channel at all times. Herbie will fluctuate in the over flow box. If the open channel starts to make noise in the Bean, then you just open the valve a bit on the siphon drain to get it quiet again.

You seem to be confused, your exclusionary definition of a siphon never happens in the bean drain except in an emergency. Not under normal operation.

 

[teesquare]

Oh boy.........................
Why do I get the feeling that this has become more about semantics, and terms and definition than whether the Bean system is an actual step forward?


Prepares to jump from the thread ........Pulls ripcord........GERONIMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wave:

T

 

[jthomps123]

Oh boy.........................
Why do I get the feeling that this has become more about semantics, and terms and definition than whether the Bean system is an actual step forward?


Prepares to jump from the thread ........Pulls ripcord........GERONIMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wave:

T

No its about it being a step forward. Im trying to figure out why. Im getting that the bean is supposed to be 'self regulating'. Does that mean its set and forget? You never have to deal with adjusting the gate valve ever after the initial setup? If so then I can see where it would have merit.

Though I have just set up my Herbie drain I never have to fiddle with it either. Only time will tell if it needs constant attention. I dont forsee that though.

 

[teesquare]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PowermanKW]

You seem to be confused, your exclusionary definition of a siphon never happens in the bean drain except in an emergency. Not under normal operation.

The main drain in the Bean is a siphon. The open channel is not, it is just an overflow..... until the main drain gets clogged. Then the open channel gets full and creates a siphon. The only drain that will never be a siphon in the Bean is the emergency drain. it is turned up and only surface water will overflow into it.

 

[jthomps123]

The main drain in the Bean is a siphon. The open channel is not, it is just an overflow..... until the main drain gets clogged. Then the open channel gets full and creates a siphon. The only drain that will never be a siphon in the Bean is the emergency drain. it is turned up and only surface water will overflow into it.

The main drain in a bean is the same as in a herbie!!!

BTW how can it be a 'siphon' if its just a 'drain'....?!? [/sarcasm]

 

[PowermanKW]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So how good is the open channel at this? I mean I don't mess with my Herbie much, but I do at times. I only run the level an inch or so below the emergency to keep the overflow quiet, so not much room.

How much water can go down the open channel before it starts making noise?

 

[teesquare]

I will give you an example -
Last nite, I bumped the ball valve-by accident- on the main siphon - did not think I moved it.
About 3:00 a.m. - I heard it slurping, as it was sucking air.
I got up, and closed the door to my office - where the tank is - and my bedroom door - and went back to sawin' logs....
By 8:00 am - when I was on my 2nd cup of coffee- I realized it was SILENT again.
It truly seems to find its own equilibrium - with a much wider margin of error than the Herbie system. Again - not a knock, just an observation from a guy that uses BOTH...
T

 

[PowermanKW]

The main drain in a bean is the same as in a herbie!!!

Sorry, it isn't. Try this..... i'm being serious.

My gate valve in my Herbie is by the sump. What is driving the flow is the head pressure above the valve. So from the valve to the water level in the overflow.

Now look at Bean's .... or the picks above. The main drian has an elbow on it. So that elbow goes down say two inches. So the only water flow you will get is being driven by that 2" difference in height. Not much flow there. So when you turn on the return pump on a Bean... that is exactly what will happen. It will only flow what that 2" will drive. The overflow continues to rise, then all of a sudden it flushes. The pipe fills and then instead of that 2" driving it, the length of the drain leg drives it. What 3 feet?

Regardless how small it is, there is a lifting component at work, and a longer leg of fluid driving it. That is a siphon. If the Bean is not set right, then it will stop and flush, stop and flush..... just like Dursos and other drains with down turned elbows. When the Bean is set right, the siphon is maintained. A Herbie will drain regardless. there is no lifting, no siphon at work. It just drains water. Does that make sense?

 

[PowermanKW]

Here is the definition of a siphon from Websters.com

a tube bent to form two legs of unequal length by which a liquid can be transferred to a lower level over an intermediate elevation by the pressure of the atmosphere in forcing the liquid up the shorter branch of the tube immersed in it while the excess of weight of the liquid in the longer branch when once filled causes a continuous flow

Here is a explaination I wrote before.

OK.... let me settle down.... and try a different approach. Don't mean to get testy.

So.... everything flows due to gravity. Water seeking it's lowest level. The force behind every thing is gravity. This I'm sure we can agree on.

Say we have a tank of water with 2 feet of water and a drain valve at the bottom. What we have is 2 feet of head pressure. We open the drain on a 1" inch line and it will flow what a 1" line will flow with 2 feet of head pressure. As the tank drains, head pressure decreases, and flow will slow accordingly. At some point a vortex will form at say 4" of water. Flow will slow again simply because now the line has air in it. Flow will never stop though until all water drains.

Now, lets say we set that tank on a 3 foot stand. The valve still only has 2 feet of head pressure, and it will flow the same as it did.

Now, lets move that drain valve to the floor. Now we have 5 feet of head pressure sitting on top of it. When we open the valve all the way, the line will now flow more water because of the higher head pressure on it.

OK....so much for a simple drain...... let's move on to a siphon.

We have the same 2 foot tank of water on the ground. We put a U-tube over the side of the tank. Extend one side 6 inches into the water, and the other side goes to the ground. We have no flow. We must start the siphon. We suck on the other end to anitiate flow.

What we now have is 6" of head pressure on the tank side pipe. On the other side we have in effect 2 feet of head pressure. The weight of water in the two foot side is driving... or pulling... on the 6" of head pressure in the tank. The net positive head you are working with is STILL 2 feet because the water has to rise in the pipe. It will flow the same water than the 2 feet of head pressure in our above example. It continues to drain the tank. As that 6" of head pressure decreases inside the tank, flow slows accordingly because now the water has to be "lifted" above the side of the tank. Yet on the other side of the tank you still have that 2 foot of water driving the system, or pulling it over the side of the tank. The net positive result is you still have 18" of head driving flow when it gets to the bottom of the 6 inch pipe inside the tank.

So... what happens then??? Well the tank drains to 6". Then air enters the siphon and breaks flow. Air inside the tube is not heavier than water. It can't pull anything. The siphon stops flow, the tank remains at 18" Further action is required to initiate flow again.

Now lets put that tank on the 3 foot stand and extend that siphon to the floor and the pipe inside the tank to the bottom of the tank.

You have the exact same setup as the above example. On the outside leg, you have the weight of 5 feet of water moving water. The same as a simple drain with the valve at the floor. The flow is very fast, but as the tank empties, it gets sower until air enters the system then breaks the siphon, and we still have say 1" of water left in the bottom. Flow stops. Further action is required to get it going.

So... what does all that mean??? What drives everything is gravity and the weight of the water column from one level to the lower level. The difference is that with a tank with a drain at the bottom, water will flow regardless of any action out the bottom of the tank till it is all gone. Period.

What a siphon gives is the ability to "lift" water by using the weight of a longer leg of water on the other side to do the work. We use the water weight against itself to "lift" water over the edge of a container. Because if there is no drain at the bottom, how do we get the water out? We use the siphon and the water wieght to give a net head pressure to drive the system.

Why people mistakenly say a siphon moves more water than a simple drain is this.....

If we have a 18" stand pipe inside that same two foot tank. Water will drain due to the 6" of head pressure at the stand pipe. It will probably not flow much and create a vortex and allow air in. It will drain slower and slower until the 6" of water is gone to the level of the top of the stand pipe. We look at that and say..... hummmm it took 5 minutes to drain 6" of water.

OK.... now lets use a siphon with 6" inches of pipe into the water and 5 feet to the floor. We start the siphon.... and we drain that 6" of water in 2 minutes. Hummm... a siphon flows more water.

Not so fast..... the siphon has the advantage of 5 feet of head pressure driving it. It DOES NOT flow more than a drain that has 5 feet of water above the drain valve. It has the SAME flow. Yet we say a siphon drains water faster. But it important to compare apples to apples and look at the height of the water column driving the system. 6 inches versus 5 feet.

So a siphon is a bent tube that allows us to "lift" water above a level. But air getting in decreases the weight of the water column and will eventually break flow. A drain just drains.

The difference with Dursos and other stand pipe with u tubes at the end it that you need the air break in there to prevent a siphon action. Because at one point the tube overflows with air, but then it gets so full and all of a sudden flows a LOT more because a siphon. And it will continue to go back and forth like that. How ever... you are going from a head pressure of 2 inches, to all of a sudden 5 feet when the siphon begins. Then it cycles back and forth. So you need the siphon break to allow air to allow the pipe just to overflow.

Now.... does any of that help??? I mean that sincerely.

 

[jthomps123]

Sorry, it isn't. Try this..... i'm being serious.

My gate valve in my Herbie is by the sump. What is driving the flow is the head pressure above the valve. So from the valve to the water level in the overflow.

Now look at Bean's .... or the picks above. The main drian has an elbow on it. So that elbow goes down say two inches. So the only water flow you will get is being driven by that 2" difference in height. Not much flow there. So when you turn on the return pump on a Bean... that is exactly what will happen. It will only flow what that 2" will drive. The overflow continues to rise, then all of a sudden it flushes. The pipe fills and then instead of that 2" driving it, the length of the drain leg drives it. What 3 feet?

Regardless how small it is, there is a lifting component at work, and a longer leg of fluid driving it. That is a siphon. If the Bean is not set right, then it will stop and flush, stop and flush..... just like Dursos and other drains with down turned elbows. When the Bean is set right, the siphon is maintained. A Herbie will drain regardless. there is no lifting, no siphon at work. It just drains water. Does that make sense?

Bean animal:"Any time you fully submerge an overflow, it becomes a siphon."

Why else do you think that a gated/submerged drain can drain just as much/more than a non submerged drain. Because a siphon is being created!

 

[PowermanKW]

Bean animal:"Any time you fully submerge an overflow, it becomes a siphon."

Why else do you think that a gated/submerged drain can drain just as much/more than a non submerged drain. Because a siphon is being created!

Read the example I gave above. I told you why it can flow more. Read the defintion from any dictionary.

So then the drain hole in your oil pan is a siphon? It's fully submerged. We can agree to disagree on this. Being full does not make it a siphon, it just makes it full. Lifting water to an intermediate level makes it a siphon. Per the definition. Argue it with Websters.

Perhaps this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

 

[jthomps123]

Read the example I gave above. I told you why it can flow more. Read the defintion from any dictionary.

So then the drain hole in your oil pan is a siphon? It's fully submerged. We can agree to disagree on this. Being full does not make it a siphon, it just makes it full. Lifting water to an intermediate level makes it a siphon. Per the definition. Argue it with Websters.

Perhaps this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

I will check an unabridged dictionary when I can. Please stop citing websters.com.

 

[PowermanKW]

I will check an unabridged dictionary when I can. Please stop citing websters.com.

Find one that says a submerged drain is a siphon.

 

[jthomps123]

Read the example I gave above. I told you why it can flow more. Read the defintion from any dictionary.

So then the drain hole in your oil pan is a siphon? It's fully submerged. We can agree to disagree on this. Being full does not make it a siphon, it just makes it full. Lifting water to an intermediate level makes it a siphon. Per the definition. Argue it with Websters.

Perhaps this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

From your link:
"tube that allows liquid to drain from a reservoir through an intermediate point that is higher, or lower, than the reservoir, the flow being driven only by the difference in hydrostatic pressure without any need for pumping."

Thanks for the help.

 

[PowermanKW]

From your link:
"tube that allows liquid to drain from a reservoir through an intermediate point that is higher, or lower, than the reservoir, the flow being driven only by the difference in hydrostatic pressure without any need for pumping. It is necessary that the final end of the tube be lower than the liquid surface in the reservoir."

Thanks for the help.

Liquids can rise over the crest of a siphon because gravity pulls on the greater weight of the liquid in the longer outlet leg, allowing the liquid to flow to a lower potential energy state. Siphons can be most easily understood using the conservation of energy. If given the opportunity, liquid will flow downward with gravity to attain a lower energy state. In a siphon, the liquid first rises over a barrier, temporarily increasing its potential energy, so that it can then flow down to a level lower than its starting point, experiencing a net decrease in energy.

An external pump has to be applied to start the liquid flowing and prime the siphon

Try to read it all, not just he part you think agrees with you.

Glad I can help.


Let me ask you since you like to be so practical. What functional value is given by calling it a siphon? Siphons do not flow by themselves, they need to be primed. Either by sucking liquid up or submerging them and filling the pipe.

So for the Herbie design, where is the prime? What action do you need to take to start the siphon on a Herbie? I'll tell you, there is no action required because it is not a siphon.

all we are doing is arguing definitions. I'll sleep fine tonight wether you agree with me or not.... but what functional purpose is there to calling a Herbie a siphon? I can open my gate valve all the way and my Herbie will drain without any help from me. I close it off to keep air from entering, but where is the siphon?

My point is who cares what the definiton is, I'm asking you what purpose is served by not just calling it what it is....a drain? There is a purpose with the Bean, because it is a siphon. When the system is first started everyone freaks out that it is going to overflow .....until the SIPHON is established....then they can breath easy. So if you want to be practical, and correct in your use of terms.... what function is served by saying it is a siphon? What operational requirements does that entail, just what do I have to do for that siphon, what are the ramifications of that siphon breaking???? Again, I'll give you a clue.... nothing.... because it isn't a siphon.

 

[jthomps123]

Dont ignore the 'lower' part because it disagrees with you. It clearly states a siphon can be a tube that drains from a reservoir through a LOWER intermediate point.

The siphon on a herbie drain is created when the drain is submerged by the return water. Simple, thats how its primed.

The same 'freak-out' occurs on a herbie drain, the vessel continues to rise above the drain until it is submerged enough to keep all air from entering - reaching full siphon. And then the water level stops rising and levels out. There doesn't need to be 'ramifications' of that siphon breaking for it to be a siphon - thats just silly.

Oh and the point of not just calling it a drain is because its not 'just a drain' as aquarists know it. A 'drain' to them is a durso etc.

 

[PowermanKW]

Dont ignore the 'lower' part because it disagrees with you. It clearly states a siphon can be a tube that drains from a reservoir through a LOWER intermediate point.

The siphon on a herbie drain is created when the drain is submerged by the return water. Simple, thats how its primed.

The same 'freak-out' occurs on a herbie drain, the vessel continues to rise above the drain until it is submerged enough to keep all air from entering - reaching full siphon. And then the water level stops rising and levels out. There doesn't need to be 'ramifications' of that siphon breaking for it to be a siphon - thats just silly.

Oh and the point of not just calling it a drain is because its not 'just a drain' as aquarists know it. A 'drain' to them is a durso etc.

The lower point is a siphon such as a toilet bowl trap. Or a pea trap on a sink.

Dude, Find me any definiton period that states a full pipe is a siphon. Any definition from any source that says a siphon is when a pipe gets full, or is absent of air. OMG!

The Herbie drain does no such thing. It begins overflowing period. The water continues to rise because at the lower water level the head pressure does not flow as much. As the water continues to climeb an equilibrium is reached between the water level height and the valve opening that gives a equal amount of flow.

Does a Herbie stop draining and then flush... a Druso does, a imporerly adjusted Bean does... does a herbie clear out and then rise, clear out then rise??? No it does not. It drains PERIOD. Either drains enough, or not enough, but nothing will stop it.

I guess we are done.