NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[Beenalongtime79]

tygger,

You are correct, you do need larger restriction to keep the water at the same level in overflow depending on the height of your stand pipe.... this is due to the increased pressure as your standpipe gets lower.

You will not really have to worry about adjusting it too much. Buildup from bacterial film is negligible if your piping is large. I've got 1 1/4" and the only time that you should ever have to mess with that ball valve or gate valve is if something ever gets stuck in the main drain and the water starts flowing down the back up drain. Another reason that you might have to adjust is if the return pump strainers (if you have one) gets clogged up and flow slows down into the display.

None of these should cause major problems if you have the backup overflow or if you have your main drain very well baffled off.

Honestly, if you had to take 10 minutes to adjust your drain once a month, wouldn't it be worth it for a completely silent sump and overflow.... not that I've ever done that much adjusting myself after the initial tweaking when first calibrating the level in my overflow.

The only main problem is if you have a pump that has a strain that tends to buildup with matter that slowly clogs it up. I run barebottom and have no strainer on the inlet to my external pump so I've got no worries.

Peace,
John H.

 

[ezhoops]

I need pics please of everything before I can decide, Rufio, I used your advise with the ball valve on the drain and it works great but I'm a bit nervous at night and when at work that it will overflow. what can I do, I don't want to use Herbie's remedy?

mr. Snailman post some pics

 

[galore]

I need pics please of everything before I can decide, Rufio, I used your advise with the ball valve on the drain and it works great but I'm a bit nervous at night and when at work that it will overflow. what can I do, I don't want to use Herbie's remedy?

mr. Snailman post some pics

I am curious, why don't you want to use Herbie's safety backup drain?

Without a safety backup drain, you should at least make sure that the water volume in the sump won't overflow the main tank, should the drain/return equilibrium break. Better to have a pump run semi-dry (won't run completely dry, because the drain will catch up as the pump's output decreases) than gallons of saltwater spilled on the floor...

I have a modified version of Herbie's idea running for several months now without a hitch and without fiddling with the valves after I dialed them in. If you are interested, I can post a link to a couple of pictures of my setup.

 

[tygger]

tygger,

You are correct, you do need larger restriction to keep the water at the same level in overflow depending on the height of your stand pipe.... this is due to the increased pressure as your standpipe gets lower.

You will not really have to worry about adjusting it too much. Buildup from bacterial film is negligible if your piping is large. I've got 1 1/4" and the only time that you should ever have to mess with that ball valve or gate valve is if something ever gets stuck in the main drain and the water starts flowing down the back up drain. Another reason that you might have to adjust is if the return pump strainers (if you have one) gets clogged up and flow slows down into the display.

None of these should cause major problems if you have the backup overflow or if you have your main drain very well baffled off.

Honestly, if you had to take 10 minutes to adjust your drain once a month, wouldn't it be worth it for a completely silent sump and overflow.... not that I've ever done that much adjusting myself after the initial tweaking when first calibrating the level in my overflow.

The only main problem is if you have a pump that has a strain that tends to buildup with matter that slowly clogs it up. I run barebottom and have no strainer on the inlet to my external pump so I've got no worries.

Peace,
John H.

True, the 10 mins or so per month will be welll worth it! And come to think of it, if the pump begins to clog, then the water level in the overflow will actually drop. Thanks for the re-assurance!

 

[uninformed]

I'm jumping in late on this thread, but I just found this entire site.

This is restating the obvious, but the key to this setup running quiet that nobody explicitly mentioned (unless I missed it) was that the drain line now runs liquid full from the overflow standpipe to the restrictring valve. After that, there is still air in the line, but the controlled "release" from the valve allows the water to flow along the pipe walls, rather than in some kind of transitional flow between empty and liquid full.

Rufio: You're comment about the restrictions and standpipe height is incorrect.

...you do need larger restriction to keep the water at the same level in overflow depending on the height of your stand pipe.... this is due to the increased pressure as your standpipe gets lower.

For this setup, the standpipe height has zero to do with the level in the overflow. As you've seen, the level in the overflow is controlled by how far the valve is closed. You could run this setup with only a bulkhead and the emergency standpipe and get exactly the same results. (NOTE: You might need a vortex breaker on the bulkhead. The strainer usually functions as one.)

Since the drain is liquid full from the valve to the level in the overflow, the static head at the valve is the same regardless of the standpipe height. If take a cardboard mailing tube in the pool with you (open on both ends) and hold it vertically against the bottom, the pressure is going to be the same inside and outside the tube, regardless of how tall it is (as long as it's totally submerged).

Dual Overflows: For everyone with dual overflows, does each line drain individually into the sump, or do you tee them together?

 

[sseaner]

I have been using this setup for months. It works great and is absolutely DEAD silent. You must have a gate valve to control the flow. That is the key. I also use the emergency line along with a float switch to cut off the return pump. For my drain pipe I simply used a 1" piece of PVC and drilled numerous holes in it. I did not glue them into the bulkheads so I can remove them easily for cleaning. The pipe on the right is the primary and the one on the left (it has no holes) is the emergency.

Here you can see the float switch

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Jerseyboy,

I don't mean to contradict you, but you are wrong and have misunderstood my statement.

You can't honestly believe that having a standpipe vs. no standpipe will allow you to have the water level in the overflow at exactly the same height and have the same restriction at the gate valve.

That's just not possible due to the differences in pressure seen at the restriction between standpipe vs. no standpipe. It's true that at the same height in the overflow, the pressure at the bottom is the same, but when you have the standpipe, the gate valve isn't seeing that additional pressure due to the standpipe which is opposing the force of that pressure, but if you remove that standpipe, the restriction will now "see" this pressure at the bottom of the overflow.

So in essence, if you don't have a standpipe, then you will have to put more restriction on the gate valve to reach the exact same height in the overflow if you had the standpipe.

Now, you could have the same restriction without the standpipe, but the water would reach an equilibrium at a lower level in the overflow.

The pool analogy can not be applied to this issue because we are talking about two separate bodies of water with different pressures. Now, if we were using this in a uniform body of water, well then that tube would flow no water. Definitely not what we are trying to achieve with a standpipe.

Peace,
John H.

 

[tygger]

Dual Overflows: For everyone with dual overflows, does each line drain individually into the sump, or do you tee them together? [/B]

Mine will be two individual lines going into the sump. If they were T'd together, there could be a chance that a clog occurs after the T.

 

[galore]

Jerseyboy,

That's just not possible due to the differences in pressure seen at the restriction between standpipe vs. no standpipe. It's true that at the same height in the overflow, the pressure at the bottom is the same, but when you have the standpipe, the gate valve isn't seeing that additional pressure due to the standpipe which is opposing the force of that pressure, but if you remove that standpipe, the restriction will now "see" this pressure at the bottom of the overflow.

From what I remember from my fluid dynamics/statics classes that is not the case. Water pressure in the overflow box (and the pipes) is a function of water height (usually referred to as depth). It does not depend on the volume - for example a 1" water column diameter footprint has the same pressure at 1ft as at 1ft depth in the ocean.

There is no fundamental difference in pressure that the valve 'sees', whether there is a standpipe in the overflow or not (assuming that the water level exceeds the standpipe). As long as the standpipe is submerged (and ignoring its friction loss), it does not 'do' anything, pressure wise.

I confirmed this with an experiment on my overflows. No difference whatsoever in water level with or without standpipe.

 

[tygger]

This can be easily tested. Since my tank is not stocked yet, I can test it using a standpipe, then removing the standpipe to see if the water level in the overflow changes without touching the valve.

 

[Beenalongtime79]

I will try this as well. I'm still very skeptical of this, but if it works, then that will be a good thing because then I can occasionally flush the bottom of my overflow of detrital build up.

Peace,
John H.

 

[Aquaduck]

No difference in water level in the overflow with or without a standpipe. The standpipe is open at the top (I removed the upside down U). as long as the water is level in the overflow is above the standpipe there is no change when the pipe is removed or added.

 

[uninformed]

I will try this as well. I'm still very skeptical of this, but if it works, then that will be a good thing because then I can occasionally flush the bottom of my overflow of detrital build up.

Like everyone else, I didn't want to turn this into a diatribe on fluid mechanics, but rest assured, it will work.

The 'flush' idea is exactly what I was thinking about. Rather than use the normal standpipe, why not just put a long strainer into the bulkhead and run that way to prevent snails, etc. from getting to the sump? You can even tee into your drain lines upstream of the valve to be able to flush the accumulated detritus into another container, rather than the sump.

On the dual overflows, I was asking because if you set up this system similarly in both overflows, tying them together with a single valve (in a larger joint line) would allow them to operate at the same level.

 

[Beenalongtime79]

I stand corrected

This will be good if it works. I still don't really understand it conceptually though. Doesn't seem like it should be the same, but the proof is in the pudding.

Looks like I'll have to do this so I can flush out the detritus that's been building up there. It's a ***** to try to siphon out the sucker.

Peace,
John H.

 

[mc-cro]

Why flush the detritus? I throw some rubble and dead coral skeletons down there and make a mini refugium. Granted the pods dont make it to the main tank usually, but its still fun to watch the critters at a glance

 

[Beenalongtime79]

detritus is bad if you are keeping SPS.

Peace,
John H.

 

[patsan]

rufio,
Did you ever try this yet?

 

[Demeter]

Herbie,

Are you still monitoring this thread?

 

[trilinearmipmap]

Just want to say I have been running this system for several months now and I am quite happy with it.

When I do it on my next tank though I will definitely use gate valves rather than ball valves. The ball valves are too hard to adjust.

 

[patsan]

Just nice to know it really works!