I had a new sump built and replummed my system. 265g with a 80g sump. I hooked up a dart for the return and had to throttle it back to less than half power. I have two 1" drains. I use one as a full siphon and one as emergency. The return is about 10 feet of head loss but it is 1.5" the whole way. Should I be able to get more drainage and more flow from the return with this setup ?
NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!
- Thread starter Herbie
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TheFishMan65
New member
If you block the emergency does the siphon form? Where is the valve, how far under water is the outlet?
Rocketboy52
New member
You need to cross a minimum threshold with either flow or head pressure for a drain line to self start a siphon. If you change the head pressure, (raise drain, increase pipe diameter, reduce turns in the plumbing, or simply decrease the amount that your drain penetrates the water in your sump you should be able to easily fix it.
The first and simplest test is to raise the exit out end of the water an inch and see the drain will self start a siphon. If it does with the end out of the water, you will know you are really close. The deeper the exit is in the sump, the more pressure needed to purge the air when the siphon starts. If the drain will siphon with the exit open to air (least pressure possible) then a very minor change in plumbing will usually fix the problem as its only a tenth of a psi difference that will cause or prevent a self starting siphon. You can also increase the water height in your overflow over the intake, or shorten the top of the pipe to get it further underwater which will also give you more head pressure and help you in getting the siphon to self start. Also minimize long horizontal runs of line, as they increase fluid drag, but don't add any head pressure benefit.
The first and simplest test is to raise the exit out end of the water an inch and see the drain will self start a siphon. If it does with the end out of the water, you will know you are really close. The deeper the exit is in the sump, the more pressure needed to purge the air when the siphon starts. If the drain will siphon with the exit open to air (least pressure possible) then a very minor change in plumbing will usually fix the problem as its only a tenth of a psi difference that will cause or prevent a self starting siphon. You can also increase the water height in your overflow over the intake, or shorten the top of the pipe to get it further underwater which will also give you more head pressure and help you in getting the siphon to self start. Also minimize long horizontal runs of line, as they increase fluid drag, but don't add any head pressure benefit.
Thank you rocket. Very informative. I read somewhere else to try drilling a hole on the exit pipe just above the water line in the sump. I think I have a combination of problems. Three 90s is one. I think my pipe in the overflow may be too tall. It's about 8 inches below the teeth. Is there a good way to tell for sure that the siphon is running ? I had to restrict the output on the dart considerably when i restarted this yesterday and before I had it run wide open
Rocketboy52
New member
My guess not being there is that at wide open you are not a siphon, at when considerably restricted you are probably running a siphon. If you are flowing water and it is fast, and you pick up the exit tube out of the sump and its not gurgling, you are most likely running a siphon. I think drilling a hole above the water line is a bad idea as it could prevent siphon from starting in the first place if its too big as it will provide a vent if the flow isn't high enough. Another good indication that the siphon is flowing is that when the drain first start flowing it will gurgle and slurp, once flowing, it will be silent in the pipes. As the siphon starts it will usually give a single big air purging burp as it starts, if you don't hear or see that, its probably not siphoning. My 1" drains probably flow 3-4 times the quantity of water as a drain when the siphon is running so if my over flow water is high and using the 2nd and 3rd drains then the main drain doesn't have a siphon and the water gets high enough to go through the 2ndary vented line and emergency drain lines.
When I click on your link for the pic it does not show,but instead it says error
plunderisley
Member
deleted. dupe post
plunderisley
Member
I started off with no mods - too loud
I made the durso standpipe and that helped, but it still makes noise.
I want to get the system even quieter.
hmm is there a way I can get this to work on a tank with just 1 drain? I was thinking of putting in a Y adapter, having a pipe go straight up and put the ball valve. on the other Y branch off, put a 30degree connector to get the emergency overflow.The tank came with a small sheet of drilled acrylic which is a snail catcher. I can place that on top of the pipes to prevent any snail problems.
I made the durso standpipe and that helped, but it still makes noise.
I want to get the system even quieter.
hmm is there a way I can get this to work on a tank with just 1 drain? I was thinking of putting in a Y adapter, having a pipe go straight up and put the ball valve. on the other Y branch off, put a 30degree connector to get the emergency overflow.The tank came with a small sheet of drilled acrylic which is a snail catcher. I can place that on top of the pipes to prevent any snail problems.
TheFishMan65
New member
IMHO you can't do it with one drain. The second will allow air which defeats the silence of the siphon.
Hal
New member
This is my fear too. Can anyone chime in who's tried to T their two lines?
illjoshlli
New member
I haven't tried it but what if you put a small hole on the secondary (emergency) side just below the intended water line? I would think this would give you enough water to fill that side down to the T to allow a siphon. So, your total siphon would be the water coming in from the ball-valve reduced standard drain (left side of drawing) + the water coming in from the small hole on the secondary drain (right side). This is totally just an idea; I don't know if this would actually work.
This would not resolve the issue if you get a clog below the "˜y' splitter
I actually built my "Herbie" overflows before reading this thread and I installed two gatevalves and my drains are seperated. I did this thinking that if one gets clogged somehow the other is still rolling along, which is true.
What I ended up doing is the "trickle" method and I have the level up to the emergency(1/2" below water level in tank so no sound) and just the tinyest trickle of water goes down the emergencies at all times. Solved my equalization problem and having a dead silent 300 gallon tank with a sump that looks like it's standing water is AMAZING to me.
Still thinking about joining the returns to one gate valve. I wonder if it's really that much better. Anyone done both and have some input on the actual difference? I may do it just to have only one drain going into sump and save some space.
What I ended up doing is the "trickle" method and I have the level up to the emergency(1/2" below water level in tank so no sound) and just the tinyest trickle of water goes down the emergencies at all times. Solved my equalization problem and having a dead silent 300 gallon tank with a sump that looks like it's standing water is AMAZING to me.
Still thinking about joining the returns to one gate valve. I wonder if it's really that much better. Anyone done both and have some input on the actual difference? I may do it just to have only one drain going into sump and save some space.
plunderisley
Member
Yeah, I am worried with the clogging, but as I have only 1 drain, even if I had no pipe and something fell in, it would clog. The safer method is the durso standpipe as the intake is facing down, so something really needs to try to get in there to clog it.
TheFishMan65
New member
You could do an over the tank siphon and use the one hole for the emergency. You would probably need a n aqualifter or something to prime the siphon. Not ideal, but combining drains will only cause problems.
Small hole as illjoshlli won't work. The siphon has to have no air - period. Any ir will get mix in and be noisy.
Snausy, Hlaf herbie half bean. Make sure that emergency does not grow critters or it won't be an emergency when you need it. IMHO do not compine before the valve. This is the weak point in the siphon where a clog is likely to happen. If you combine it affect both drains so no emergency.
Small hole as illjoshlli won't work. The siphon has to have no air - period. Any ir will get mix in and be noisy.
Snausy, Hlaf herbie half bean. Make sure that emergency does not grow critters or it won't be an emergency when you need it. IMHO do not compine before the valve. This is the weak point in the siphon where a clog is likely to happen. If you combine it affect both drains so no emergency.
Ack I said "joining my returns" when really I meant joining my drains. Sorry for any confusion.
My emergencies are two seperate 1" and I won't be doing anything with them. They stay the way they are. What I'm asking is if there is a REAL benifit to joining my drains and having only one gate-valve? Currently everything is seperated. Two 1.5" drains each with a gatevalve and two 1" emergencies. Nothing is joined up.
The only way I can imagine to join the two main drains to one gate-valve is having the valve AFTER the join and now I'm being told that it's the weak spot of the siphon so...yeah that is not going to work. Unless I'm totally missing the point. Which happens quite often actually. :hmm5:
Half herbie, half bean? I'm not that familiar with the bean. I thought that was a coast-to-coast thing...
My emergencies are two seperate 1" and I won't be doing anything with them. They stay the way they are. What I'm asking is if there is a REAL benifit to joining my drains and having only one gate-valve? Currently everything is seperated. Two 1.5" drains each with a gatevalve and two 1" emergencies. Nothing is joined up.
The only way I can imagine to join the two main drains to one gate-valve is having the valve AFTER the join and now I'm being told that it's the weak spot of the siphon so...yeah that is not going to work. Unless I'm totally missing the point. Which happens quite often actually. :hmm5:
Half herbie, half bean? I'm not that familiar with the bean. I thought that was a coast-to-coast thing...
TheFishMan65
New member
You could combine the emergencies, and the siphon into two drain lines. You can not combine emergency and siphon (this is what I thought you wanted to do). Gate valve after the combination. Since you probably have two overflows that don't always get the same water it might stay tuned better.
No I missed something in the description
Bean added a third drain which takes a small flow - like you explained. The emergency was then kept dry.
No I missed something in the description
Bean added a third drain which takes a small flow - like you explained. The emergency was then kept dry.
You could combine the emergencies, and the siphon into two drain lines. You can not combine emergency and siphon (this is what I thought you wanted to do). Gate valve after the combination. Since you probably have two overflows that don't always get the same water it might stay tuned better.
No I missed something in the description
Bean added a third drain which takes a small flow - like you explained. The emergency was then kept dry.
oh I see. Thanks for clearing that up I get it now. Two drainpipes to the sump would be certainly less clutter than the four that exist now.
RiddleEagle18
New member
How far below the surface of the water should the intake of the drain be? Also how far should the drain be underwater on the sump side? How much difference in height between the drain and emergency? I am having a bit of trouble keeping air out of mine.
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