No Water Changes

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15345583#post15345583 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
see.. this is exactly what I mean :)

Eric uses 02, Paul uses 02 and Gary never uses 02.
Eric doesn't change water, Paul seldom changes water and Gary regularly changes water (on one aquarium) and doesn't change water on another.
Assuming all of our fishes and corals are living out (at the least) their natural lifespan... who's to say what's "right" or running properly?
I'll bet all three of us don't need to change water to keep nitrates under control.

The simple fact remains that the vast majority of reefeepers' aquariums can benefit from properly executed regular partial water changes. Think of it as a reboot :)

I know you are not implying---but your first statement could be interpreted by a new reefer to mean that if they use ozone then they don't have to change the water. Which we know is not true;)

How do you and Paul address the issue of coral toxins etc that no doubt end up in the water. Does running carbon 24/7 address that issue?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15345704#post15345704 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I know you are not implying---but your first statement could be interpreted by a new reefer to mean that if they use ozone then they don't have to change the water. Which we know is not true;)
so true- thanks for pointing that out.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15345704#post15345704 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
How do you and Paul address the issue of coral toxins etc that no doubt end up in the water. Does running carbon 24/7 address that issue?
I run GAC actively 24/7. I'm willing to bet Eric and Paul use carbon (at least occasionally) as well.
 
This thread reminds me of the movie dune where the desert people wore suits that processed all thier sweat and urine into drinking water. That is what we do with our tanks with skimmers and supplements. Obviously it is possible to live that way but why would you want to or to make your fish drink their processed pee. I like my pets (which my fish are) so I don't really want to do that to them.;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15339405#post15339405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
I guess this thread will enlighten you. There are plenty out there, the president of our local club (Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society) here in Utah, Adam Blundel never water changes and has great tanks. I am on the quarterly water change schedule, and can't complain. I am in for the long haul too, doesn't look like any ill effects to me, you?...

FTS2-2008012.jpg

Like I said, there's got to be one or two in there, somewhere. I'm guessing a whole lot of carbon if that's the case. I don't use carbon, so I guess I'm a$$ out.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15343198#post15343198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I would have said more like 2 to 4 years. In 6 - 12 months there are still things alive from the sea in there. Bacteria and microrganisms will still be reproducing from a wild stock. Eventually that "wild" stuff will be taken over by the stuff that is going to last for years which may be totally different from the original stock. The main bacteria will come in with new additions from buying coral (unlesss you are like me and you collect bacteria)
The tank will settle down and get easier to take care of in a couple of years. I don't even consider a 12 month tank cycled

I think if you know what your doing, the tank has matured right off the bat once the cycle is done. Parameters are parameters, whether the tank is new or old. Two to four is a long time.

JMO.
 
I think its your money invested, do what you want. I dont mean to sound like a tree hugger, but I feel we have a certain responsibility to do what ever is in our power to do what is best for all animals involved. This may change in the future but I think most research done by people far smarter that me leans twords water changes as the way to go. The way I see it is that water changes are a small price to pay for some insurance on my investment. But like I said do what you want.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15347178#post15347178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
I think if you know what your doing, the tank has matured right off the bat once the cycle is done. Parameters are parameters, whether the tank is new or old. Two to four is a long time.

JMO.

There is more to a mature tank than the few parameters we test for. I agree with Paul in that a tank is mature after a few years. Now that doesn't mean you wont be able to keep most corals or fish but the tank is typically not as stable.
 
Does running carbon 24/7 address that issue?

I do run carbon every few months.
Cloak, yes parameters are parameters but bacteria are not bacteria.
All bacteria are not created equally and there is no aquarist test kit out there that can test which of the thousands of types we have. The correct bacteria process all of our wastes. The wrong type sit there looking at us through the glass watching TV and do nothing. And there are plenty of wrong types.
A newly set up tank looks to me anyway lousy. The fish are skitish and always hide. New water should make them healthy and less stressed but it does not. It is the bacteria along with the chemical processes that make a tank run stable. Parameters without the correct strains and numbers of bacteria will not support life for long. it takes time for the correct bacteria to mature and multiply enough for our purposes.
Thats why always say a tank is never matured, The maturity changes depending on the load. If you cycle your tank with a dead shrimp. that means you have enough bacteria to process a dead shrimp, nothing more.
We ourselves depend on bacteria in our intestines to digest food. We all know what happens when we don't have the correct types or numbers of bacteria in us.
 
I continue to change approximately 15% of my system volume once a week; sometimes I'll miss a scheduled change if I'm just too busy. The way I see it after six years in this hobby, a small "tidal surge" of new water (properly matched to the parameters of the tank, aged and aerated) just can't be anything but beneficial to organisms accustomed to enormous turnover rates.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15347321#post15347321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B

It is the bacteria along with the chemical processes that make a tank run stable. Parameters without the correct strains and numbers of bacteria will not support life for long. it takes time for the correct bacteria to mature and multiply enough for our purposes..

So are you saying that water changes somehow take some of the good bacteria out of the system?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15348199#post15348199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toadally
So are you saying that water changes somehow take some of the good bacteria out of the system?

bacteria in general are not in the water column---otherwise when you did a big water change you would be in trouble. Bacteria are in and on the reef rock and in and on the sand bed.
Nitrates on the other hand are water soluable and will be removed by a good 30 per cent water change.;)
 
I think there is something to be said for routine as well. I think our species adapt to tank conditions. I think if the person changing 20% every week for 10 years suddenly stopped the tank would look poor for quite some time and some things may not adjust. Likewise I think if I snuck into PaulB's house in a Ninja costume and did a 70% waterchange his inhabitants would react poorly no matter how perfectly I tried to match water params. I would argue that bacteria (who can be selected quickly due to fast reproduction) would be especially adapted to either stability or routine change. That's my .02.... I gotta go get my Ninja costume and start driving east ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15348423#post15348423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
bacteria in general are not in the water column---otherwise when you did a big water change you would be in trouble. Bacteria are in and on the reef rock and in and on the sand bed.
Nitrates on the other hand are water soluable and will be removed by a good 30 per cent water change.;)

I understand that, but I was trying to figure out what he was trying to say. It was a bit confusing to me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15339405#post15339405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
I guess this thread will enlighten you. There are plenty out there, the president of our local club (Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society) here in Utah, Adam Blundel never water changes and has great tanks. I am on the quarterly water change schedule, and can't complain. I am in for the long haul too, doesn't look like any ill effects to me, you?...

FTS2-2008012.jpg
I don't think the picture proves much of anything, except there are very few fish in the tank. I only see 4, not exactly typical. I am sure that makes a big difference compared to the 9 fish in my 29 gallon SPS, LPS nano tank. As someone else stated ,try doing a couple water changes and I think you will notice a favorable difference in any tank. That is assuming your using good water with proper Salinity, temp, PH, ALK, CA, and Mag levels.

I new someone with a 450 gallon tank that bragged he had not done any water changes in well over a year. He claimed his corals were doing great. This intrigued me, so I arranged to see his tank. To be honest it, was one of the worst tanks I have ever seen. Algae everywhere, all but choking out the few SPS he had that were still alive. He hardly had any fish in the tank. All I could think was why in the world did he waste the money running six 400 watt MHs, just to grow hair algae?

Personally I have never seen a tank that did not respond favorably to a water change, assuming properly mixed water. I have worked on many tanks besides my own. I had 7 reef tanks until recently and tend to be a little lazy about my water changes. If I neglect them for to long it becomes obvious, although my parameters never change. I do have what most people would consider a lot of fish in all my tanks. Many times I will have a spawning event after doing water changes. A 5 gallon change in a 24 gallon nano cube regularly triggers mass mini brittle star spawning. Both when I was doing changes on this tank weekly and now that I do then less often. This happens in my 240 also, but are much harder to see unless your very paying close attenion.

The way I see it; we are only measuring a few parameters in our tanks. I have the ability to measure about 7 personally. I am sure we are not measuring everything that is important to our systems. Is it something that the fish or corals are depleting or is it something toxic that is building up in the system. I don't know, but to me water changes clearly are beneficial. I have never wished I had not done one, only that I had done it sooner!

If it what your doing works for you and your system, that is great. I do not think most of the people in this thread are the average hobbyist, but more advanced ones. clearly you are more in tune with your system and how it works then many. I believe; Most hobbyist would benefit greatly from increased water changes with properly mixed water.
 
After reading through this entire thread I am left with the thought that observation and monitoring are key regardless of how much if any water you change in you system.

I have been changing aprox 20g a week in my very small system (maybe 70g of water) every week for the entire time the tank has been set up , all my parameters have been stable and all my fish and LPS coral are doing great.
In fact my Acans are growing like weeds with new heads popping up all the time.

I dose nothing.

I am very new to Reef keeping and this has been working for me so far .

I have been keeping FW fish for over thirty years and water changes are critical , I guess old habits are hard to break.

Tim
 
bacteria in general are not in the water column---otherwise when you did a big water change you would be in trouble. Bacteria are in and on the reef rock and in and on the sand bed.

Exactimundo

I think if I snuck into PaulB's house in a Ninja costume and did a 70% waterchange his inhabitants would react poorly no matter how perfectly I tried to match water params. I would argue that bacteria (who can be selected quickly due to fast reproduction) would be especially adapted to either stability or routine change. That's my .02.... I gotta go get my Ninja costume and start driving east

My home is alarmed :lol:

We are getting off track here. I am not argueing that we should not change water and I never said water changing was bad.
I said, and if I could remember what I said, it was something like, fish don't look good in "all" new water. They just don't.
As a matter of fact, they look terrible. But smaller water changes are fine and in "most" but not all tanks, they need to be done.
There are all sorts of factors that are a benefit and detriment to a captive tank. Bacteria can be both. But after a few years in a tank, if we are lucky, the correct types of bacteria will predominate and we will not have nitrate problems. Algae is another double edged sword. Algae also imparts (you like that word Capn?) beneficial chemicals to the water. We usually think of algae as a detriment and I cringe when I read that someone sees a little algae and they go nuts. In older writings, we hear of the health benefits of the chemicals algae puts in the water. We can't measure this as a parameter, but a tank with algae, all else being equal, will be healthier.
The corals themselves, exude chemicals into the water to battle other corals or to get similar corals to move near by. We don't really know the effects of these chemicals or how much of them are removed by skimming or even if we would want to remove them. Then we have the multitudes of microscope animals which are pooping, peeing and spawning (thats disquesting). I once had 25 purple urching all spawn at once. All of that adds chemicals that we can not test for. A tank is not just calcium, phosphorous and nitrate. The sand, gravel and rocks constantly disolve adding not just calcium but everything else on the earth's crust. Food, forget food, there are too many chemicals to count not even counting any preservatives. Plastic, which we use for everything has plasticizers in it to keep it flexible. That stuff disolves out of the plastic which is why that airline tubing gets stiff and brittle after time. It is also why there are warning labels on drinking water bottlles about re using the bottles.
Not all of these things may be bad. I am sure all of them are not good so we change water.
But Whatever is in the water, the animals may become accustomed to them and actually may do better with them.
Like recreational drugs, some people do good with them, or at least they feel good with them but go through withdrawal when we remove them. OK bad example, but you get my drift.

So we all need to change water eventually.

I have been changing aprox 20g a week in my very small system (maybe 70g of water) every week for the entire time the tank has been set up , all my parameters have been stable and all my fish and LPS coral are doing great.

Kish, that is fine and we hear it all the time, but your tank is 5 months old. In 5 months I will change a little water maybe once.
Your tank is probably all ASW and all the trace elements are there in the correct quantity and there are not too many of the chemicals I mentioned. After a few years these things will build up either benefiting or hurting your set up. That is why some tanks look great and some are plagued with problems.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no way we can tell in an older tank exactly what is in the water. If someone posts that their fish are sick everyone asks what the parameters are. I don't really care about the parameters unless they are way out. That will not cause disease but in an older system the "general" health of the inhabitants could be affected adversely by whatever "is disolved or not disolved" in the system.
My water has been in the tank for 40 years. Could you imagine what is in there? Obviousely it is not all bad. I would imagine some of it is very good as my fish and crabs are spawning, I don't have to quarantine and they usually die of old age. ;)
Have a great day and remember, this is a hobby, don't get a headache over it. I am a hobbiest like all of us and all of my ideas and theories could be a load of you know what :rolleyes:
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15349293#post15349293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laverda
I don't think the picture proves much of anything, except there are very few fish in the tank. I only see 4, not exactly typical. I am sure that makes a big difference compared to the 9 fish in my 29 gallon SPS, LPS nano tank. As someone else stated ,try doing a couple water changes and I think you will notice a favorable difference in any tank. That is assuming your using good water with proper Salinity, temp, PH, ALK, CA, and Mag levels.

I new someone with a 450 gallon tank that bragged he had not done any water changes in well over a year. He claimed his corals were doing great. This intrigued me, so I arranged to see his tank. To be honest it, was one of the worst tanks I have ever seen. Algae everywhere, all but choking out the few SPS he had that were still alive. He hardly had any fish in the tank. All I could think was why in the world did he waste the money running six 400 watt MHs, just to grow hair algae?

Personally I have never seen a tank that did not respond favorably to a water change, assuming properly mixed water. I have worked on many tanks besides my own. I had 7 reef tanks until recently and tend to be a little lazy about my water changes. If I neglect them for to long it becomes obvious, although my parameters never change. I do have what most people would consider a lot of fish in all my tanks. Many times I will have a spawning event after doing water changes. A 5 gallon change in a 24 gallon nano cube regularly triggers mass mini brittle star spawning. Both when I was doing changes on this tank weekly and now that I do then less often. This happens in my 240 also, but are much harder to see unless your very paying close attenion.

The way I see it; we are only measuring a few parameters in our tanks. I have the ability to measure about 7 personally. I am sure we are not measuring everything that is important to our systems. Is it something that the fish or corals are depleting or is it something toxic that is building up in the system. I don't know, but to me water changes clearly are beneficial. I have never wished I had not done one, only that I had done it sooner!

If it what your doing works for you and your system, that is great. I do not think most of the people in this thread are the average hobbyist, but more advanced ones. clearly you are more in tune with your system and how it works then many. I believe; Most hobbyist would benefit greatly from increased water changes with properly mixed water.

Very well said
 
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