No Water Changes

[Toadally]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15326698#post15326698 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
they claim laughter is the best medicine

anyways (like anything in life) you only get out of something what you put into it. IMO/IME it's fairly easy to spot a reef aquarium that receives at least regular partial water changes and one that doesn't receive them at all. Water changes are one of the simplest most effective tools for an aquarist to use in order to maintain a reef aquarium- even if you have test kits for calcium, alkalinity, Mg, etc. etc. etc. and supplement for their depletion.


In short:
water changes keep your aquarium "soup" from getting too unique

I can't agree more with you. I do weekly water changes.

 

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15337401#post15337401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
I'm sure there are people out there that don't, but those are not very good odds to me. The lazy factor seems to come into play. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon, and I'm not playing that horse.

I love to see a tank where there were NO water changes at all. NONE. Got to be one or two in there. I'll bet on it.

I guess this thread will enlighten you. There are plenty out there, the president of our local club (Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society) here in Utah, Adam Blundel never water changes and has great tanks. I am on the quarterly water change schedule, and can't complain. I am in for the long haul too, doesn't look like any ill effects to me, you?...

 

[Toadally]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15336494#post15336494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stumpovrtyme
If it's yellow let it mellow, If it's brown flush it down!

Not going to lie I use to do water changes all the time and my parametes were all over the place. I quit doing them and eventually my parameters all leveled out. Whats up with that? I was doing 5 gallons a week on a 55. Now its like 5 gallons a month.

For every batch of salt you use check the parameters and adjust according to your tank.

 

[cloak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15339405#post15339405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
I guess this thread will enlighten you. There are plenty out there, the president of our local club (Wasatch Marine Aquarium Society) here in Utah, Adam Blundel never water changes and has great tanks. I am on the quarterly water change schedule, and can't complain. I am in for the long haul too, doesn't look like any ill effects to me, you?...

I'll buy you a drink.

It's a lost cause main...

 

[Big E]

I'm not sure the picture above is proof to not do water changes. The system looks young based on the size of the corals..............or they aren't growing very fast because the water isn't being changed.


I've done 10 percent changes for twenty years & it's worked well for me. Just water changes & a skimmer ............nothing else. I've been rewarded with fish that are 8 to 16 years old & Sps colonies ranging from 4 to 8 years old to bother changing anything.

Don't forget about the fish.

 

[Plankt0s]

I've had small reefs do well with no water changes. Just make sure that you use DI water for top off.

 

[Paul B]

is there anyone out there who does not do water changes or rarely does water changes with a successful tank?

I change 20% of the water five or six times a year. I don't know if you would consider my tank successful but next year it will be 40 years old.
There are much nicer tanks than mine but my theory is that if your system, whatever it is, reduces nitrates on it's own, then you don't have to change "as much" water. If your nitrates rise, your system is not working and you better change water.
I never change water to reduce nitrates, my tank does that with no help from me, I change water to reduce substances that are not removed by skimming and bacteria and also to add some trace elements. I don't test for anything so changing water will add everything I need.

I use this schedule, not because I am lazy. I feel that a tank needs stability and I have never seen a new tank with new water where everything looked great.

 

[Aquarist007]

I use this schedule, not because I am lazy. I feel that a tank needs stability and I have never seen a new tank with new water where everything looked great. [/B]

This is where the problem is IMO. We know new tanks are not stable and we know alot of other processes and cyles are establishing themselves other the the nitrogen cycle in a new cycle.
Added to this that reefers alot of the times rush too quickly to add fish corals and inverts to a newly cycled tank. First choices to a newly cycled tank also can cause problems eg sand sifters preying on inverts ect in the first layer of the sand bed that is trying to establish itself.
I have read a few posts on here and one anecdotal concept that is repeated quite frequently is that a tank doesn't mature until 6-12 months.
With this in mind IMO water changes bimonthly or weekly should be done in the first year of the tank.
After that I agree with what Paul has written above---you can then go longer between water changes based on the nitrogen level in your tank.
I also am a firm believer in being very selective in the salt mixture that you use==depending on the parameters you wish to keep and the usage of alk and calcium, matching it with you needs can allow you to go alot longer between water changes.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15340497#post15340497 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
I've been rewarded with fish that are 8 to 16 years old & Sps colonies ranging from 4 to 8 years old

now if you were growing Xenia, Gorgonians and 'Kenya Trees' (instead of SPS) you could have avoided a lot of water changes and still had a very nice reef aquarium.
Again, it all depends on one's definition of 'success'.

Almost every single reef aquarium (no matter how "successful") can benefit from regular partial water changes- ESPECIALLY older established systems. With newer systems water changes are usually less critical than older established systems simply because it's not 'soup' yet.
It's natural for saltwater in a closed system full of living growing corals to stray towards entropy over time. If "plenty of 'things' in asw are no where near nsw levels" to begin with (which is true) just imagine what happens over time. Does anyone actually believe water in a closed reef system strays towards NSW levels over time?
Give an experienced reefkeeper that knows what they're doing a new reef aquarium with new water and stand back to watch 'em grow Acropora like crazy (but this has little to do with the topic of this thread IMO).

Does anyone believe that a water change (if done properly) will actually be detrimental to their reef aquarium?
Of course there are people that believe this, (and it might even be true in certain cases) because it all depends on what you're attempting to keep alive in your reef aquarium and one's definition of success.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15341000#post15341000 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
now if you were growing Xenia, Gorgonians and 'Kenya Trees' (instead of SPS) you could have avoided a lot of water changes and still had a very nice reef aquarium.
Again, it all depends on one's definition of 'success'.

Almost every single reef aquarium (no matter how "successful") can benefit from regular partial water changes- ESPECIALLY older established systems. With newer systems water changes are usually less critical than older established systems simply because it's not 'soup' yet.
It's natural for saltwater in a closed system full of living growing corals to stray towards entropy over time. If "plenty of 'things' in asw are no where near nsw levels" to begin with (which is true) just imagine what happens over time. Does anyone actually believe water in a closed reef system strays towards NSW levels over time?
Give an experienced reefkeeper that knows what they're doing a new reef aquarium with new water and stand back to watch 'em grow Acropora like crazy (but this has little to do with the topic of this thread IMO).

Does anyone believe that a water change (if done properly) will actually be detrimental to their reef aquarium?
Of course there are people that believe this, (and it might even be true in certain cases) because it all depends on what you're attempting to keep alive in your reef aquarium and one's definition of success.

wise words as always Gary:thumbsup:

I don't think anyone is arguing against water changes on this thread---rather the frequency of doing them

 

[Paul B]

a tank doesn't mature until 6-12 months.

I would have said more like 2 to 4 years. In 6 - 12 months there are still things alive from the sea in there. Bacteria and microrganisms will still be reproducing from a wild stock. Eventually that "wild" stuff will be taken over by the stuff that is going to last for years which may be totally different from the original stock. The main bacteria will come in with new additions from buying coral (unlesss you are like me and you collect bacteria)
The tank will settle down and get easier to take care of in a couple of years. I don't even consider a 12 month tank cycled

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15343198#post15343198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I would have said more like 2 to 4 years. In 6 - 12 months there are still things alive from the sea in there. Bacteria and microrganisms will still be reproducing from a wild stock. Eventually that "wild" stuff will be taken over by the stuff that is going to last for years which may be totally different from the original stock. The main bacteria will come in with new additions from buying coral (unlesss you are like me and you collect bacteria)
The tank will settle down and get easier to take care of in a couple of years. I don't even consider a 12 month tank cycled

thanks for correcting me great mentor

 

[Paul B]

You really have to stop with that great mentor stuff.
I'm getting a big head and not enough hair to cover it

 

[paytonv]

water change

water change

Eric Borneman made a very informative speech yesterday at SRC (Southeastern Reef Conference) and stated in a talk that he has not done a water change on his system in years. He never said that we shouldn't do water changes, he simply said that all his parameters were in check and why fix what's not broken. I am not sure how much livestock is in his system and how much waste is produced but he did state that he runs ozone, doses ca/alk, and often doesn't use a skimmer. Pictures of his tank included SPS and macroalgae (I believe this tank has been set up for over 10 yrs). He also said that water changes are not a bad thing and do what works for you in order to keep parameters consistent and in check.

 

[Paul B]

I totally agree with Eric. Most old established systems do not need as much water changes as a new system. A properly run system is almost self sustaining.

 

[illal]

i do a 30g WC every month or at least i try to! sometimes i go 2 months in between but you can usually tell when i go too long cause ther'll be algae every where

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15344739#post15344739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I totally agree with Eric. Most old established systems do not need as much water changes as a new system. A properly run system is almost self sustaining.

careful. I don't think Eric meant to imply that most older established systems do not need as many water changes as newer ones and who's to say what a properly run system is?

I could let my aquarium go without water changes, skimming and calcium/alkalinity supplementation for a year and plenty of critters would be doing just fine.... thriving even. Does that mean my aquarium is running properly? No.
Because I have an older established system that (obviously) benefits from regular partial water changes does it mean that it's not running properly or it's not balanced?
No.
Live growing corals deplete calcium, alkalinity, along with other major and minor elements quite rapidly. They also put a lot of harmful metabolites into the water column of a closed system.
The average hobbyist doesn't have all the test kits Eric has access to nor does the average hobbyist strive to acheive any one reef biotope- they usually pack their aquarium with all sorts of stuff.

Note that Eric uses ozone and often doesn't use a skimmer. (Does this mean he OFTEN uses a skimmer?) A lot of people can grow macroalgae and SPS this way. We could all learn something if Eric would post a full tank shot (and pix of his total system) and list all the livestock in it. It would be interesting to learn of the biodiversity (at all levels) in his aquarium.

 

[Paul B]

and who's to say what a properly run system is?

That is true, we don't really have a guage to tell what a properly running system is, but my interpertation of a properly running system is a system where the nitrates stay under control without water changes, the fish live long enough to die of old age and the animals that can spawn in a tank, "are" spawning. The corals are growing for a number of years as opposed to dying and the animals rarely, if ever get sick. In other words, the tank is running as close as possable to the real sea and the animals are as healthy as they would be in the sea.
I have spoken to Eric many years ago (I forgot why or when)
I also use ozone and always have. I think my tank would also go for years with no water changes. I change some water for the reasons I stated.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

see.. this is exactly what I mean

Eric uses 02, Paul uses 02 and Gary never uses 02.
Eric doesn't change water, Paul seldom changes water and Gary regularly changes water (on one aquarium) and doesn't change water on another.
Assuming all of our fishes and corals are living out (at the least) their natural lifespan... who's to say what's "right" or running properly?
I'll bet all three of us don't need to change water to keep nitrates under control.

The simple fact remains that the vast majority of reefeepers' aquariums can benefit from properly executed regular partial water changes. Think of it as a reboot

 

[ReefWreak]

I definitely agree that most reefers should do water changes frequently, especially in the first year or two of the tank's life, until they get their "rhythm" in. After you find your rhythm, you can star experimenting and trying different ways of doing things. Usually things are doing well and not dieing to quality as rhythm. It also means that the aquarist is comfortable in their daily/weekly/monthly routines as well.

That being said, E. Borneman doesn't hang around here anymore cause he's been chased off too many times by angry ReefCentralers with pitchforks and torches (at least the last time I looked for him around here, might have been a year ago or more).