NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar
- Thread starter llandegfedd
- Start date
That's expensive vodka. At those prices , I'd be thinking about some home brewed "white lightning",as it was called , a popular drink with some folks I know in rural North Carolina.
When my wife and I visited her family ,right after we were married in 1968, just before being shipped overseas, the local guys took me to a "pig sticking". All night was spent cooking a freshly slaughtered pig for the next day's family gathering at a barbecue ,playing cards and sipping the clear liquid from mason jars. They all got a chuckle at the yankee from New York's reaction to the firewater .
When my wife and I visited her family ,right after we were married in 1968, just before being shipped overseas, the local guys took me to a "pig sticking". All night was spent cooking a freshly slaughtered pig for the next day's family gathering at a barbecue ,playing cards and sipping the clear liquid from mason jars. They all got a chuckle at the yankee from New York's reaction to the firewater .
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shermanator
New member
I'm new to the hobby, so I don't know all the history of carbon dosing: Is your ratio a common dosing regimen? It's pretty clear that Red Sea copied what you dose (nearly exactly), because it's scary close to the exact same thing (within the error of my student's measurement of ethanol and acetic acid concentrations for sure).
Your exact dosing scheme is pretty much perfect for anyone wanting to switch from NOPOX.
Same in Canada (for the high taxes on Alcohol).
If you were to pre-mix the vodka and vinegar to the suggested ratio, how long would it be good for? I am wondering if you could use it in a bottle hooked to a dosing pump, or would the not completely air tight seal (to allow air to replace the volume used) cause the alcohol to evaporate?
I have my does of vinegar spread out over a 24 hour period and I would hate to lose the convenience.
... for that matter would the same thing happen to vinegar?
Dennis
If you were to pre-mix the vodka and vinegar to the suggested ratio, how long would it be good for? I am wondering if you could use it in a bottle hooked to a dosing pump, or would the not completely air tight seal (to allow air to replace the volume used) cause the alcohol to evaporate?
I have my does of vinegar spread out over a 24 hour period and I would hate to lose the convenience.
... for that matter would the same thing happen to vinegar?
Dennis
Doesn't seem that close to me - your measurement of NOPOX was 6:1 ethanol to ACOH
Tmz's recipe is 3.5:1 ethanol:acoh
Hardly close.
-droog
Cool, thanks for the calculation and posting. Your vodka is cheap! I figured at least twice that cost for the vodka which would make it 57.6+8= $0.66 /day for your recipe vs $0.65 for NOPOX (assuming minimum dose). I'm using NOPOX at the moment and the minimum dose keeps my parameters at good levels.
-droog
It's a common brand, Barton ,bottled in Kentucky and California.
Red Sea also claims some other elements are added . Probably trace amounts of ??? or maybe some glucose building off the old vodka sugar vinegar mixes that were common about 5 or 6 years ago .
Red Sea also claims some other elements are added . Probably trace amounts of ??? or maybe some glucose building off the old vodka sugar vinegar mixes that were common about 5 or 6 years ago .
Do you dose your ingredients separately or premix a batch? And how often, one dose a day or gradually?
I currently dilute one part NOPOX with 9 RO/DI and dose hourly. The dilution helps prevent any reaction with the plastic in my tubing and helps make each dose a more reasonable volume (say a few ml) since my bubble magus dosing pump is not super-accurate at very low volumes and I don't need much total volume.
Don't know whether it really makes sense to dose hourly rather than daily... that just seemed like a good idea at the time.
-droog
IMO, hourly dosing does make more sense than once a day, to avoid an O2 depletion and pH drop (from CO2 and the vinegar) shortly after dosing. 
shermanator
New member
It's a 6:1 molar ratio by NMR. Ethanol and acetic acid don't have the same molecular weight.
FWIW, many people assume (incorrectly) that manufacturers know more than we do about what is good and what is not good for a reef tank.
In reality, many products reflect what reefers already use. So it is not too surprising that this product would be close to what Tom uses, or the VSV (vodka/sugar/vinegar) that was one of the early published recipes.
That said, I've not really seen any evidence that using multiple organic sources is clearly better than using just one. I use only vinegar, for example.
In reality, many products reflect what reefers already use. So it is not too surprising that this product would be close to what Tom uses, or the VSV (vodka/sugar/vinegar) that was one of the early published recipes.
That said, I've not really seen any evidence that using multiple organic sources is clearly better than using just one. I use only vinegar, for example.
I bolus dose( all at once) 30 ml of vodka and 80ml of vinegar in the am just after lights on in the 650 gallon system. That relatively small amount of vinegar barely moves pH ,less than 0.1. so I can get away with it. If I did more vinegar I would put it on a dosing pump spread over the lights on period.
I also dose an extra 6 ml of vodka at night.
The ethanol takes an extra step as acetic acid bacteria oxidize it to acetic acid which spreads out the pH reaction without a precipitous downward spike , so it's easier to bolus dose it.
The ethanol could also be spread out. .
There may be a spurt of bacterial activity related to the bolus dosing which may lead to higher levels of anaerobic NO3 reduction . To be honest ,though , I do the split bolus dosing mostly because it suits my routine and I don't mind hand feeding the bacteria.
I also like the nighttime dose to enable some continuous level of bacterial activity in case the am dose is depleted over 12hours or so. When I forget it on rare occasion the PO4 is a few hundreths of a ppm higher in the am.
I don't know about the evaporation rates for the ethanol if it's kept in an open container for timed dosing .
I also dose an extra 6 ml of vodka at night.
The ethanol takes an extra step as acetic acid bacteria oxidize it to acetic acid which spreads out the pH reaction without a precipitous downward spike , so it's easier to bolus dose it.
The ethanol could also be spread out. .
There may be a spurt of bacterial activity related to the bolus dosing which may lead to higher levels of anaerobic NO3 reduction . To be honest ,though , I do the split bolus dosing mostly because it suits my routine and I don't mind hand feeding the bacteria.
I also like the nighttime dose to enable some continuous level of bacterial activity in case the am dose is depleted over 12hours or so. When I forget it on rare occasion the PO4 is a few hundreths of a ppm higher in the am.
I don't know about the evaporation rates for the ethanol if it's kept in an open container for timed dosing .
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Ah, I see. Thanks.
I was curious about this, so looked up molecular weights and densities
Ethanol 46 g/mol, 0.7892 g/ml
Acetic Acid 60 g/mol, 1.05 g/ml
Playing around with these I could't make 3.5:1 by volume come out to be close to 6:1 by molar ratio. I believe you're right and the two things are close, but somehow I can't figure it out right. Driving me crazy now!
-droog
shermanator
New member
I will post the math later tonight. They are not exact, but fairly close, especially when you consider that our measurement of how much acetic acid (percentage) is in nopox has significant error. We could do it with more precision, but I don't think there is too much point.
I'm certain the ratio is fairly unimportant, but going by post #48, if you mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water, you'll be pretty close. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water.
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