NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

I have been dosing 40ml a day of NoPox for two weeks now without any change. No noticeable bacteria blooms, did find a small patch of white fluffy stuff growing in sump right where I dose but that is about it, nothing in display.

Anyone think I should increase the daily ML or just keep at this a few more weeks? I am skimming wet and have a huge skimmer FYI.

2 weeks is pretty short to see improvement from those levels. I would give it about 2 months and monitor your NO3 as that is what will show improvement first.

Your rock will most likely be leaching PO4 for quite a while as high phosphate is known to bind to calcium carbonate. Once your NO3 gets down, you will have to decide how to deal with the left over PO4. The safe method is GFO, but expensive if you are dealing with extreme levels. LaCL (Lanthanum Chloride) is much cheaper and faster, but can be very dangerous to fish (like Tangs) if not done properly. Dosing Nitrate to keep a minimum amount of NO3 in the system to allow the PO4 to be exported is another option. There are many threads on here for all of these techniques.

I would not suggest going above the recommended amount as you can have issues with bacterial blooms that can rapidly deplete your tank of oxygen and wipe your system.

Slow and steady will win this race. It will just take some time.

Dennis
 
Could someone please post the math for a straight conversion from no3pox to vinegar? I'm at ~80ml/day no3pox and would like to cut over straight to vinegar.
 
Could someone please post the math for a straight conversion from no3pox to vinegar? I'm at ~80ml/day no3pox and would like to cut over straight to vinegar.

There isn't one. NOPOX is mostly ethanol, but does contain acetic acid. If you try to substitute NOPOX with acetic acid alone, you would have to take a wild guess about the efficiency of acetic acid vs ethanol.

You can follow the recipe I gave earlier and it will work well. But you have to use vinegar AND vodka. You can mix a big batch, it will store fine in a closed container.
 
Could someone please post the math for a straight conversion from no3pox to vinegar? I'm at ~80ml/day no3pox and would like to cut over straight to vinegar.

As mentioned, it is not strictly a math conversion, but I'd suggest that vinegar (5% acidity) at about 4-5x the volume of NOPOX is roughly equivalent.

I assume this is a fairly large aquarium?
 
As mentioned, it is not strictly a math conversion, but I'd suggest that vinegar (5% acidity) at about 4-5x the volume of NOPOX is roughly equivalent.

I assume this is a fairly large aquarium?

Thanks Randy! 4-5x is a great starting point.

~ 700g in the system (450g DT heavily feed). I've only being carbon dosing since 8/23 so I'm somewhere between initial dosing and maintenance dosing. I just double checked and I dialed things back to 66ml/day a few weeks ago.
 
I'd suggest that vinegar (5% acidity) at about 4-5x the volume of NOPOX is roughly equivalent.

Maybe. But I would be worried that this might provide significantly more carbon source than NOPOX because there is inefficiency in uptake and subsequent bacterial conversion of ethanol to acetic acid.

Bottom line (for me) is that it's so easy to make home-brew NOPOX, if you have been using NOPOX for any period of time, why not use both acetic acid and ethanol as carbon sources?

But if someone really wanted to go from NOPOX to only vinegar, I'd undershoot the vinegar and work back up (based on results you see). It's going to be a safer way to go (avoid any bacterial blooms). I'd suggest, at most, going to a 2x volume of acetic acid compared to NOPOX.
 
Official unscientific results- switching from one part nopox to four part vinegar is a little bit more carbon than before. Justification, I had a little bit of bacterial bloom stringy stuff before the change and I have little bit more with vinegar. I've dosed a whole lot more nopox and know what a larger blooming looks like (stringy stuff in sump, lots of it).

No real test results to report as my nitrate test kit was bad.

Slow progress, 700 gallons of 40 ppm nitrate to deal with. I feel like I'm topping off with vinegar basically. Running the Brs 1.1 dosing pump almost 10 hours a day now.
 
... I would be worried that this might provide significantly more carbon source than NOPOX because there is inefficiency in uptake and subsequent bacterial conversion of ethanol to acetic acid....

I'm not sure what you mean by ineffciency in uptake;could you clarify it?
 
Anyone want to help with a plan of attack for handling my nitrates and phosphates? No3 is 100+ppm and phosphate are 1.0-1.5ppm with Salifert kits.

330G of water and the tank is a year old, 35 fish so feeding very heavy. It was a FOWLR but have added corals in the last few months. Mushrooms and zoas and gorgs all doing great, SPS not so much lol.

I have been dosing 40ml a day of NoPox for two weeks now without any change. No noticeable bacteria blooms, did find a small patch of white fluffy stuff growing in sump right where I dose but that is about it, nothing in display.

Anyone think I should increase the daily ML or just keep at this a few more weeks? I am skimming wet and have a huge skimmer FYI.

Personally,I would not increase the dose. The nitrates are high and it may take months for carbon dosing to affect them very much particularly with continuous heavy feeding.

FWIW, I had nitrates around 50 to 80 ppm in 500 gallons of water about 6 years ago. Lot's of fish; lots of corals; lots of food. Ultimately, I DIY'd a sulfur denitrator for a total cost of about $125 and was able to drop nitrates to near zero in two weeks. Then I began organic carbon dosing (vodka and vinegar) which has kept up with inputs for the last 5.5 years without the denitrator.I began teh orgnic carbon dosing slowly and amped it up over the first month or so. My current dose is 36ml of vodka and 80ml of vinegar for 650 gallons;the system grew a little.

Phosphate can be taken down with GFO or another remover until organic carbon dosing starts.. Lanthanum chloride is cheaper but I don't use it in the aquarium anymore ;I consider it hard to manage and risky. It's easy to use for curing rock with leaching PO4 outside the tank,though.
 
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... I would be worried that this might provide significantly more carbon source than NOPOX because there is inefficiency in uptake and subsequent bacterial conversion of ethanol to acetic acid....

I'm not sure what you mean by ineffciency in uptake;could you clarify it?

Ethanol is more passively cell permeable than acetic acid, but acetic acid is actively transported.
 
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How would that create an inefficiency per se.What cells are taking up ethanol and are they using it as a carbon source? . I'm not familiar with that part of the process. Doesn't ethanol oxidize to acetic acid in water via acetobacteria? Wouldn't acetic acid dosed slowly roughly equate to ehtanol in organic C content. How does all that impact the likelihood of a bacterial bloom.

thanks
 
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How would that create an inefficiency per se.What cells are taking up ethanol and are they using it as a carbon source? . I'm not familiar with that part of the process. Doesn't ethanol oxidize to acetic acid in water via acetobacteria? Wouldn't acetic acid dosed slowly roughly equate to ehtanol in organic C content. How does all that impact the likelihood of a bacterial bloom.

thanks

I'll preface this with stating that I'm not a microbiologist and it's been a while since my last micro class. That said...

All bacteria can use ethanol (and acetic acid) as a carbon source. Ethanol needs to be converted into acetic acid (by NAD dependent enzymes, I can look up the exact enzymes if useful). This happens inside the bacteria. There are also acetobacteria who do a superb job of processing ethanol into acetic acid. They are actually used commercially to produce vinegar. This process happens inside the acetobacter and uses NAD-dependent dehydrogenase enymes.

I've not searched for it specifically, but I've never seen a mention of what specific bacteria are found in marine aquaria. It would be an interesting study for sure, but also difficult and of questionable utility (would be great to know, but if the bacteria populations are doing what we want them to, does it matter if we know?). So I'm not certain how much acetobacteria is (or isn't) in our tanks. The use of ethanol as a carbon source does not require there to be acetobacteria (but of course, doesn't exclude their presence either).

Ethanol needs to be converted into acetic acid inside the bacteria. Whether that is done by nitrifying / denitrifying bacteria or acetobacteria, both ethanol and acetic acid must be internalized. Active transport of acetic acid helps more AcOH (compared to EtOH) get into bacteria.

So... Why do I think ethanol is a "weaker" source of carbon than acetic acid on a 1:1 molecule basis? Because a) active transport of acetic acid and b) no conversion goes to 100%. Not all ethanol will be converted into acetic acid. Some ethanol will azeotrope with water and leave the tank altogether. That won't happen with acetic acid under normal tank conditions. I wouldn't claim one source is "better" than the other. Even if acetic acid is "stronger" it has pH issues that can be undesirable (but yes, easy to mitigate). I haven't been in the hobby that long, but I personally like the ethanol-acetic acid mix.

Bacterial bloom: I've observed that when I increase carbon dosing by a good amount, I get a bacteria bloom. This makes sense as you are giving the bacteria more "food". When you consider that NOPOX is mostly ethanol (and if you buy my arguments that ethanol is a "weaker" carbon source than acetic acid, I would expect a bacteria bloom going from a straight conversion (per mole carbon source) of NOPOX to vinegar only. Although my concerns seem to be overblown, marty did report a bloom going from NOPOX to 4x volume of acetic acid which is consistent with everything above.
 
Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. It's helpful to me.
It may not be a significant issue but it is one I hadn't
thought about .
 
Thank you also. I appreciate your perspective
I'm about to switch to both vodka and vinegar now that my pellets have depleted. I am comfortable with the level of nitrates right now but if they rise I will start with adding vinegar rather then upping the dose of vodka( currently 10 ml for 225 gal)
Besides more vodka for me :) just kidding I prefer rum and it has sugar in it lol

Tom, at the start did you run pellets also.

Shermanator what form of the pellets do the bacteria assimilate?
 
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Never ran pellets. When I started dosing 5.5 years ago pellets weren't out there yet or were very new. I like the soluble organics for control of the dose and don't like the idea of the monomers I'm going to get with a polymer source like pellets.
 
Never ran pellets. When I started dosing 5.5 years ago pellets weren't out there yet or were very new. I like the soluble organics for control of the dose and don't like the idea of the monomers I'm going to get with a polymer source like pellets.

I can't recall the chemistry for polymer reduction but do you end up with monomers and carbon
If posted somewhere can you direct me to the chemistry of polymer reduction?
 
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