NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

[tmz]

Dosing smaller amounts of the stock solution at higher concentrations of ethanol and acetic acid can be more difficult to manage for small to average size systems given the limits of hobby grade dosing pumps and/ or a potential lack of precision when bolus dosing. Any error in precision will obviously be magnified at a higher concentration.
Many dose 5% acetic acid( plain white vinegar) and 40% ethanol ( 80 proof vodka) without further dilution though.

 

[msderganc]

Dosing smaller amounts of the stock solution at higher concentrations of ethanol and acetic acid can be more difficult to manage for small to average size systems given the limits of hobby grade dosing pumps and/ or a potential lack of precision when bolus dosing. Any error in precision will obviously be magnified at a higher concentration.
Many dose 5% acetic acid( plain white vinegar) and 40% ethanol ( 80 proof vodka) without further dilution though.

True. Any issue with evaporation at higher concentration?

 

[bertoni]

I think that the evaporation rate will be acceptable if the container is covered loosely.

 

[droog]

In higher concentrations I think you risk leeching plasticisers out of the tubing.

At lower concentrations, I think you risk the pH of the solution being liveable by some of the bacteria you're hoping to feed - end up feeding them in your storage vessel instead of the DT! At normal concentration, the bacteria can't thrive (is my belief anyway).

I used to use an liquid storage container with a loosely fitting lid, and NOPOX diluted 1:9 with RODI. Recently swapped out for a vertex liquid storage vessel (2.5L) that seals and stopped the dilution. At the same dose, the difference to my tank was dramatic.

I can't be sure whether my problem was evaporation or over dilution, but I've had to cut the carbon dose twice since making the change. My nitrates went from 12.5 to 0.2 in a couple of weeks, I've cut back and am feeding more heavily. Corals are fine with the exception of one Goniopora that has been sulking for two weeks... skimmate production is up, and deeper in colour, some green and brown algae seem to be dying off. Very happy with my vertex 180i...

-droog

 

[dartier]

Droog, any problems with crazing with the Vertex? There was a thread awhile back about NOPOX being implicated in the crazing of an Avast acrylic container.

Dennis

 

[droog]

Crazing? I had to look that up... you mean maze like cracks in the acrylic? If so, then no - the container looks good. I like that they seal tight, with a little one-way air valve on top to allow the dosing pump to extract liquid easily. I got the tall ones, would have gone for the stackable short ones instead, but it was not clear from the pictures whether the shorter ones have the valve or not (and I had to mail order).

-droog

 

[alexander_ktn]

One thing I noticed - and I am not sure if this is even possible with so much water present in the mix: the smell of the mixture changes over the course of the first few days.

It actually reminds me of ethyl acetate or nail polish remover. Maybe some esterification is happening and the olfactory threshold of ethyl acetate might be so low that it becomes the dominant smell of the mixture?

Would the analysis at the start of the thread have picked ethyl acetate up as a distinct compound if it formed in products like Nopox?

 

[shermanator]

Would the analysis at the start of the thread have picked ethyl acetate up as a distinct compound if it formed in products like Nopox?

Yes, the methylene (of ethyl acetate versus ethyl alcohol) would have a distinct chemical shift. Acetic acid + ethanol will not, in the absence of an acid or base catalyst, form ethyl acetate.

 

[alexander_ktn]

Thank you very much! Then it's probably just some weird olfactory thing with the combined smells of vinegar and alcohol.

 

[OlivierVDL]

Hello Every one,
seems some people are very knowledgeable on the mixing of vodka and vinegar here to get the right carbon dosing. So before I mix the wrong quantities, I would like to have your best recipe.

I have Vinegar 8% & Vodka 37,5%, so what is the perfect combination for a NOPOX solution?

Thanks all in advance,
Olivier

 

[biom]

My calculation with concentrations you give: 35ml vinegar8% + 45ml vodka 37,5% +20ml RO water = 100ml solution

 

[OlivierVDL]

Thanks a lot!

My calculation with concentrations you give: 35ml vinegar8% + 45ml vodka 37,5% +20ml RO water = 100ml solution

Could you send me some details on your calculation? would be nice to learn.

Cheers!
Olivier

 

[biom]

You are welcome :beer:.

Calculations are based on shermanator's findings on AcOH concentration in NOPOX and ratio Alk:AcOH. I've made (very) simple Excel calculator, but not sure if it is OK to attach .xls file on here? but will try.
You can made your own solution using nopox or tmz recepie. Personaly I think the original Tom's (tmz) recepie is better.

-------
Stoyan

 

[OlivierVDL]

Many thanks (again)!
Excel works fine

 

[droog]

You are welcome :beer:.

Calculations are based on shermanator's findings on AcOH concentration in NOPOX and ratio Alk:AcOH. I've made (very) simple Excel calculator, but not sure if it is OK to attach .xls file on here? but will try.
You can made your own solution using nopox or tmz recepie. Personaly I think the original Tom's (tmz) recepie is better.

-------
Stoyan

I'm just about to make some homebrew carbon for my tank. I was planning to make up 2L as follows (similar ratio to NOPOX).

5% acetic acid vinegar: 1000ml
40% ethanol vodka = 750ml
RODI = 250ml

It seems your calculator eliminates the water... is that desirable or not?

-d

 

[biom]

Hi droog,
The concentration of AcOH in NOPOX is measured by shermanator as 2.5% +/-0.5%, i.e it could be anything between 2% or 3%, that's why there are difference in calculations. Because of this there is yellow cell with concentration and if you wish you can change the concentration - for example you can change it to 2.5% and then water will appear . Personally I think the real concentration of AcOH in NOPOX is closer to the upper limit - 3%, that's why i put 2.95% in the fourth yellow cell, but you can change it to 2.5%.

With your recipe you will have about 2.5% concentration of AcOH.

Hope that helps,

-------
Stoyan

 

[droog]

Yellow cells = inputs. You must be an accountant, that how I do my models Very clear, thanks for posting.

I got -33ml of RODI water if I plug in 200/5/40/3%. Not sure if its worth fixing or not, just letting you know.

Do you say tmz's recipe is better because the carbon is more available to bacteria in vinegar than ethanol? Maybe I'll mix to that recipe instead. I'm using nopox at the moment, but it probably doesn't make much difference to the bacteria!

I believe the problem with vinegar is downward pH effect, but I'm just going to program the doser to split the dose over daylight hours... so tmz's recipe it is. Convinced myself.

Nopox probably had to compromize so that once a day hand dosing didn't shift pH too much.

-d

 

[OlivierVDL]

OK!
Now we have the calculator and understand it. I think it's great but... what about your suggestion for dosing it in the aquarium. I have a 300 L water volume so what would you suggest as a schema?

 

[tmz]

I dose 36ml of 80 proof vodka( 40% ethanol) and 80ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar daily to a 650 gallon system. This amount has been steady for about 7 years,long before NOPOX hit the market. Corals are vibrant, nuisance algae is very minimal. PO4 runs .02ppm to .04 pm per hanah 713 with NO3 at around 0.2ppm per Salifert in the heavily fed system. Most start with about 10% of that and amp up very slowly over a month or so and settle in at 50 to 120% of that level.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

 

[droog]

OK!
Now we have the calculator and understand it. I think it's great but... what about your suggestion for dosing it in the aquarium. I have a 300 L water volume so what would you suggest as a schema?

With that volume of water I think you can dose any of these recipes once per day. Splitting the doses is probably more helpful when dosing vinegar as it can affect pH. You could split it up into two if you like - during the photoperiod is probably best. Feed the bacteria for breakfast and lunch, no dinner

I don't think there are any advantages to dose more than twice/day - if you split into many small doses the error/variance in dosing volume will become larger as a %age because our dosers are not hyper-accurate for the most part.

-droog